Re: ligature formation across text chunks

The problem is that this will rule out 99.9% of all ligatures. It would be
rare indeed to have a ligature that takes up the same advancement as its
component glyphs.

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com> wrote:

> •             As defined in CSS2, ([CSS2], section 16.4), when the
> resultant space between two characters is not the same as the default space,
> user agents should not use ligatures; thus, if there are non-default values
> for properties ‘kerning’ or ‘letter-spacing’, the user agent should not use
> ligatures.
>
>
>
> At first glance, this doesn’t seem to point to that direction. However,
> this sentence is implying that the space between the characters in a
> ligature is equal to the default space which isn’t the case very often.
>
>
>
> I think the rule should be:
>
> Ligatures can form if the space that the ligature takes up is equal to the
> space of the individual glyphs (including the ‘kerning’ and ‘letter-spacing’
> properties).
>
>
>
> With this rule, subsequent characters or text runs will stay in place and
> if ligature substitution doesn’t happen, the output will still look somewhat
> correct.
>
>
>
> Rik
>
>
>
> *From:* Glenn Adams [mailto:glenn@skynav.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 23, 2011 10:14 AM
>
> *To:* Rik Cabanier
> *Cc:* Cameron McCormack; Tavmjong Bah; Vincent Hardy; public-svg-wg@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: ligature formation across text chunks
>
>
>
> OK, i agree with your first point, but not with your second point; I would
> not interpret the language about "resultant space between two characters" as
> applying to the post-ligature results; I interpret this as "if the author
> specifies kerning, letter-spacing, dx, x, etc., such that the default
> spacing is changed" then ligation would be disabled; in the case
>
>
>
> <text x="100" dx="1 2 3">coffee</text>
>
>
>
> ligation of 'ff' would be permitted, since dx is zero for the second 'f'
> and following;
>
>
>
> If it were:
>
>
>
> <text x="100" dx="1 2 3 1">coffee</text>
>
>
>
> then ligation would be disabled.
>
>
>
> Note that this creates a problem for an author that wants ligation to occur
> *and* wants to specify an x or dx for the ligature glyph.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
>
>
> In your example, there are additional offsets for ‘f’ so ligature formation
> won’t happen.
>
> Reading the spec more closely, I came across this section:
>
> The following additional rules apply to ligature formation:
>
>    - As defined in CSS2<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-CSS2-20080411/text.html#spacing-props>,
>    ([CSS2 <http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/refs.html#ref-CSS2>], section 16.4),
>    when the resultant space between two characters is not the same as the
>    default space, user agents should not use ligatures; thus, if there are
>    non-default values for properties *‘kerning’*<http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/text.html#KerningProperty>
>     or *‘letter-spacing’*<http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/text.html#LetterSpacingProperty>,
>    the user agent should not use ligatures.
>
> I **think** this means that ligatures will only form if
>
> -          There is no dx/dy offset in the <text> tag for the glyphs
>
> -          The spacing between the characters in the ligature is the same
> as the 2 individual glyphs drawn with default positioning
>
>
>
> Rik
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Glenn Adams [mailto:glenn@skynav.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 23, 2011 12:31 AM
>
>
> *To:* Rik Cabanier
> *Cc:* Cameron McCormack; Tavmjong Bah; Vincent Hardy; public-svg-wg@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: ligature formation across text chunks
>
>
>
> I believe that is the implication: "that the authoring application should
> be aware that the SVG viewer is going to create a ligature and move the ‘e’
> more to the left". Or at least that is my presumption in the absence of
> specifying x or dx coords for each output glyph. That is, if you have:
>
>
>
> (1) <text x="100">coffee</text>
>
>
>
> renderer may substitute 'ff' ligature and would adjust the origin of the
> following 'e' glyphs accordingly
>
>
>
> (2) <text x="100" dx="0 0 1 2 -1 0">coffee</text>
>
>
>
> renderer may substitute 'ff' ligature and would adjust the origin of the
> following 'e' glyphs accordingly;
>
> furthermore, the current definition of dx on text & tspan (in SVG1.1) says
> that the entries in dx correspond to "the glyphs corresponding to the
> first n characters within this element"; in the case that a ligature is
> substituted we have a case where the 'ff' ligature is subject to two
> apparent dx adjustments, '1' and '2' as associated with the two 'f'
> characters; this is probably not the intended result but it remains an
> ambiguity in the current definitions of multiple x/dx (y/dy) entries in case
> there is not a 1:1 character to glyph mapping;
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 10:43 PM, Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
>
>
> I don’t quite understand what you’re saying.
>
> In my example ‘ff’ is an optional ligature, but the letter spacing is not
> the default as witnessed by the word being shorter with ligatures vs 2
> simple glyphs.
>
> So, if an author emits ‘coffee’ with all default letter spacing and SVG
> decides to substitute ‘ff’ for a ligature, there will be more space between
> ‘f’ and ‘e’ which will look incorrect.
>
> Are you suggesting that the authoring application should be aware that the
> SVG viewer is going to create a ligature and move the ‘e’ more to the left?
>
>
>
> I agree that there should be a mechanism to emit glyph id’s so you can pick
> the desired character from a font but that is a different problem.
>
>
>
> Rik
>
>
>
> *From:* Glenn Adams [mailto:glenn@skynav.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:44 PM
> *To:* Rik Cabanier
> *Cc:* Cameron McCormack; Tavmjong Bah; Vincent Hardy; public-svg-wg@w3.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: ligature formation across text chunks
>
>
>
> The cited text indicates that if space between characters is not the
> default (i.e., letter spacing has been applied), then the UA should NOT use
> an optional ligature. Since 'ff' is an optional ligature, then letter
> spacing should block ligature formation in this case.
>
>
>
> However, if letter space does not apply, then, on the presumption that the
> UA is performing the character to glyph mapping process, it may choose to
> use the ligature.
>
>
>
> The question here may be whether there should be some mechanism by which
> the author can indicate that no character to glyph mapping process be
> applied, i.e., other than the nominal CMAP process which is necessary. That
> is, how can the author declare that no substitution (including ligatures)
> should occur even in the absence of letter spacing.
>
>
>
> G.
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> > > > When the resulting space between two characters is not the same as
> > > > the default space, user agents should not use optional ligatures.
> >
> > I missed that, thanks.
>
> I do not believe that us true. For certain ligatures, the characters will
> be closer together than the individual glyphs.
> See the attached PDF as an example.
> This is also the reason that the auto-generation of ligatures in SVG is not
> a good idea because it will create gaps or overlap with subsequent glyghs.
>
> Rik
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-svg-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-svg-wg-
>
> > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Cameron McCormack
> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:03 PM
> > To: Glenn Adams
> > Cc: Tavmjong Bah; Vincent Hardy; public-svg-wg@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: ligature formation across text chunks
>
> >
> > Glenn Adams:
> > > The current css3-text has the following under [1]:
> > ...
> > > > If the UA cannot expand a cursive script without breaking the
> > > > cursive connections, it should not apply letter-spacing between
> > > > grapheme clusters of that script at all.
> > >
> > > > When the resulting space between two characters is not the same as
> > > > the default space, user agents should not use optional ligatures.
> >
> > I missed that, thanks.
> >
> > > This text provides for the Arabic Script case (a cursive script), by
> > > indicating that the space to be extended is between disjoint graphemes.
> > > Furthermore, this text provides for the case that only optional (but
> > > not
> > > mandatory) ligatures be disabled when a letter space would apply
> > > between the characters that contribute to the ligature's component
> > allographs.
> >
> > That sounds reasonable.
> >
> > > I believe this text (the last sentence) may be acceptable in Indic
> > > scripts as well, since it only prevents optional conjunct formation in
> > > the case that letter spacing is non-zero. The only issue then is if an
> > > author wanted to use letter spacing *and* still have (some or all)
> > > optional ligatures
> > > (conjuncts) used. The alternative in that case would be to use an
> > > authoring tool that performs its own letter spacing and outputs glyphs
> > > at specific origins.
> >
> > Maybe font-variant can be used to force optional ligatures to be used in
> this
> > case?
> >
> > --
> > Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>