- From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:10:07 +1100
- To: W3C SVG Public Working Group <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html
---
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
15 Jan 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0037.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Shepazu, ed, heycam, jwatt, anthony, ChrisL
Regrets
Chair
Erik
Scribe
anthony
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Sydney F2F update
2. [6]ISSUE-2201
3. [7]SVG 1.1 errata
4. [8]ACTION-2380
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 15 January 2009
<scribe> Scribe: anthony
Sydney F2F update
<ed> AG: f2f wikipage updated
AG: I've updated the wiki page with location and where it will be
hosted
<shepazu>
[10]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SydneyF2F2009#Sydney_SVG_
F2F_Meeting.2C_Feb_16-20_2009
[10]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SydneyF2F2009#Sydney_SVG_F2F_Meeting.2C_Feb_16-20_2009
AG: I sent an email to the list
<ed> CL: will there be a phonebridge?
<ed> AG: will try to get that sorted out with the hotel
ISSUE-2201
ISSUE-2201?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2201 -- Return value of
SVGAnimationElement.getStartTime unclear -- OPEN
<trackbot> [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201
[11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201
ED: We got an email to the public list
... this is from the Mozilla team
<ed>
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0023.html
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0023.html
CL: It should throw an exception if it hasn't got a value
... what happens if you have multiple start times
... It needs to return a list doesn't it?
<ChrisL> should it return a list?
DS: In that case we shouldn't change it in SVG 1.1 and change it in
Core
... just a thought
CMC: I don't know if it's best to change it to a list a this point
DS: We could add a new method
ED: I'd probably say we return the current start time of the first
interval
DS: That's good
ED: Sort of makes it more useful
... that's the current interval you'd expect
CMC: Opera seems to return a couple of values
... Brian seems to think that it's not as useful to return the
previous interval
... It should return the start time of current or start time of next
if that's available
ED: I can have a look at the Opera code to see what it's doing
DS: I like your suggestion Erik
ED: Dunno how useful it is to have a set of start times/begin times
... we should probably try to clarify it for SVG 1.1
... we should investigate if that is adequate for future specs
... like return all the times
... the thing is you can't resolve all the times always
CL: If you can't resolve the times you could thrown an exception
ED: Probably most common when you have event based triggers
DS: Could return NAN
CMC: That's what we do in Batik
DS: Is this defined completely by us or SMIL?
CMC: I think it's by us
ED: Yes this is by us
<ed>
[13]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#InterfaceSVGAnimationEle
ment
[13] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#InterfaceSVGAnimationElement
ED: So adding an exception when you can't compute a start time or
when there is no start time
... does that seem like a good idea to add to errata?
CMC: I feel like returning a value of some sort
DS: Like NAN
CMC: I doubt there is much code that relies on this
ED: Sure, seems fine with me
... Are we fully agreed at what we should put in the errata item?
CL: So you propose returning the current interval value?
ED: Yes
CL: I agree to that
CMC: You can have end times as being indefinite, but maybe not begin
times
... what about duration?
... do you think leaving duration is ok as it is or should it return
a value?
ED: I would rather keep it as it is in that case
... it does say that it raises an exception if it is undefined
... I'd rather avoid it if we can
... so that probably argues for having an exception for getStartTime
as well then
DS: Even if we introduced a new method to return values later we
shouldn't worry about that now
... the only thing we need to resolve then is that it returns the
current interval at the moment
<ed> "getStartTime: Returns the start time in seconds for this
animation." -> "getStartTime: Returns the start time in seconds of
the current interval for this animation."
RESOLUTION: We will create an errata that introduces an exception
when the start time is unresolved but returns the start time in
seconds of the current interval for this animation when resolved
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata item for getStartTime
that it introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved
[recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2401 - Create an errata item for
getStartTime that it introduces an exception when the start time is
unresolved [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-01-22].
SVG 1.1 errata
ACTION-2362?
<trackbot> ACTION-2362 -- Erik Dahlström to backport the zero length
path wording from 1.2T to this "Reword F.5 Tangents" erratum -- due
2008-12-04 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362
[15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362
ED: That action was on me
<ed>
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/003
8.html
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0038.html
ED: I did some investigations and had some conclusions that I mailed
to the list
... one of which was we haven't addressed zero length path issues
that we raised
... the implementation notes say that it's path rendering only
... that it only applies for animation if there is a path to follow
... and there isn't any wording to back port
CMC: You said yesterday that there was an action on Andrew
ED: Yes, there was an action but it was never completed
... so we never got that wording
... comparing the wording there were some small changes
... but no substantial differences
... we could add a section that relates to animate motion and text
path
CMC: So do you think we should take up that old action and make
changes to both?
ED: It would seem a bit strange to add an errata to 1.1 and not
address it in Tiny
... we should reword it slightly?
... it wouldn't be a very large change I guess
... and can perhaps be simplified to use the same code for all the
different directionality handling?
CMC: Are we sure that the same behaviour is was we want?
ED: I think that was part of the action that Andrew had to change
CMC: I wonder if there are any tests that address this change?
ED: Perhaps
CMC: Do you think it needs investigation or just assume it?
ED: I think it might be best to test it first
... perhaps for text path
... I could take an action to make some tests for this
... I will close action 2632 given that there is no wording to back
port
CL: May have already been back ported
DS: I do recall Andrew was going to look into a number of things for
this action and that a number of resolutions were made
... can't remember what they were though
ED: It does say in the spec that you can go forward or backwards in
the data until you find directionality
DS: It says that in 1.1?
ED: I think so, just reading it here
<ed>
[17]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/implnote.html#PathElementImplementati
onNotes
[17] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/implnote.html#PathElementImplementationNotes
ED: Second major bullet point
... the second bullet point under that
... and that bullet point is very similar to 1.2 Tiny
<ed> the bulletpoint that starts with "Certain line-capping and
line-joining situations and markers"
DS: I think another related issue is arc segments that begin on the
end point. Currently we say don't render anything
... smarter way of doing it is either have something arbitary or
scan back and forth through the path data
... or scan back through the time
... might be a bit unrealistic
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite to check
if there are any tests for zero length paths that test for
directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2402 - Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite
to check if there are any tests for zero length paths that test for
directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2009-01-22].
ACTION-2370?
<trackbot> ACTION-2370 -- Erik Dahlström to go through the e-mailing
thread for errata item "Sizing of the outermost svg" and update the
item discussion -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370
[19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370
<ed>
[20]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#bzwidth
[20] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#bzwidth
ED: Errata item was empty I think
... I did add a few links to discussions
... I fixed XSL to fix a bug where if no author was listed it would
omit the links
... I also added a few discussion links to this errata item
<ed>
[21]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#IntrinsicSizing
[21] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#IntrinsicSizing
ED: it seems we have fixed a few of the items that were asked about
in 1.1
... one being intrinsic sizing
<ed>
[22]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#InitialViewport
[22] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#InitialViewport
ED: and wording on viewPort
... so here is a case where w could back port wording if we wanted
to
... we don't have any resolution, I couldn't find any in the minutes
... there was only some discussion on mailing lists and an action to
create the item
... and also Boris seemed to be happy with what we had in 1.2 Tiny
regarding this
... there doesn't seem to any minuted discussion this
AG: Did we want to discuss this at the F2F?
ED: We could, the wording could be taken across from 1.2 Tiny
... not sure if that's as easy as it sounds
... JWatt it would be good if you could take a look at the
discussions
JW: I'd be happy to
ED: If you can give your comments on this for the F2F that's be
great
<ChrisL> trackbot, staus?
<trackbot> Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, staus?'.
Please refer to [23]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
[23] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
<ChrisL> trackbot, staus
<trackbot> Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, staus'.
Please refer to [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
[24] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<scribe> ACTION: Jonathan to Take a look at the discussions in the
errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2403 - Take a look at the discussions in
the errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [on Jonathan Watt - due
2009-01-22].
ACTION-2386?
<trackbot> ACTION-2386 -- Jonathan Watt to investigate the
"SVGZoomEvent - Interface" errata item further -- due 2008-12-25 --
OPEN
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2386
[26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2386
JW: Not very clear on what needs to be done there on that one
ACTION-2368?
<trackbot> ACTION-2368 -- Doug Schepers to propose wording for the
change that addresses the errata item Current Translate Current
Scale on nested SVG -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368
[27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368
DS: I sent an email about this
<shepazu>
[28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/004
0.html
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0040.html
DS: There are two alternatives, put it in the current defintion or
at the top of the interface add some text
JW: I don't really like that wording
... having alot of nested SVG elements and then having zoom on one
makes it tricky
<ed> <svg><foreignObject><svg>...</svg></foreignObject></svg>
ED: Having an SVG with a foreignObject that reference an SVG root
<ed> (and html around the svg elements in foreignObject)
DS: This is something we need to solve this general problem for
foreignObject
... it acts as a barrier
JW: The foreignObject in Mozilla doesn't really act as a barrier
CL: If it's all in the one DOM then I agree there is no barrier then
DS: That was the action I had was to state that
... throwing an exception is also acceptable
ED: We could simply say it's undefined if you do that
<ChrisL> yes its different by inclusion and by reference
ED: and just define it for the root most SVG element
JW: I guess for me it's not very clear what interface would separate
Zooming and Panning in a document
CL: The example to have Zooming and Panning on a document is you
have a map
... in practice you may not want to do built in Zooming and Panning.
But build in your own Zooming and Panning
DS: If we have our own defined behaviour it might get used more
... I'm also with Erik here and say it's undefined
JW: This is probably a good topic for the SYD F2F
ED: My suggestion is to define it for rootmost SVG elements then for
nested it's undefined
JW: There is a distinction for SVG rootmost which is not the
document element?
DS: Correct
JW: I'd say it's only defined for SVG document element
DS: again this is an issue that we are going to talk alot about
... If we are going to have this discussion we should go with Erik's
suggestion
JW: That's what I'm saying is that we should say defined for
document element
CL: In a standard SVG file the document element and the rootmost are
the same
DS: I think that's what JWatt is saying is we can define it for
standard SVG and leave it open for HTML
... but I wouldn't want to leave it open for that case
ED: It wouldn't effect the surrounding language though?
... you'd expect to affect the SVG only
CMC: I dunno if we've thought about it
DS: We shouldn't mandate what happens in other languages
CMC: I agree with what JWatt is saying that if you have SVG in HTML
JW: For what it's worth Mozilla will ignore it if it's not the
document element
DS: So if you have an inline SVG in HTML and you change the current
scale and current translate in that SVG it has no effect?
JW: Correct
DS: I would find that not very useful
... for example if have an SVG map in HTML and I had HTML controls
for zooming and panning then I'd like to do that
ED: Seems like a good topic for a F2F
DS: I will make an amended version
... then we can discuss whether want rootmost and document element
... We had a discussion about the errata on root overflow
... but it looks like I didn't add that to the errata
... I would like to see it in the released errata
JW: Which one is this?
DS: The errata on root overflow
ED: I agree with what was agreed on
<shepazu> ACTION: add errata item for root overflow [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add
<shepazu> ACTION: shepazu to add errata item for root overflow
[recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2404 - Add errata item for root overflow
[on Doug Schepers - due 2009-01-22].
ACTION-2380
<ed> AG: probably no breakage from merging approved and accepted
<ed> ...the XSLT that generates the report needs to be checked
though
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: add errata item for root overflow [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata item for getStartTime that
it introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite to check if
there are any tests for zero length paths that test for
directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to Take a look at the discussions in the
errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu to add errata item for root overflow [recorded
in [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[End of minutes]
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Default Present: Shepazu, ed, heycam, jwatt, anthony, ChrisL
Present: Shepazu ed heycam jwatt anthony ChrisL
Agenda: [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMa
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Found Date: 15 Jan 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: add cameron erik jonathan shepazu
[39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0037.html
[40] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html
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Received on Thursday, 15 January 2009 21:10:55 UTC