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Minutes Jan 15, 2009 telcon

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:10:07 +1100
Message-ID: <496FA62F.5080506@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: W3C SVG Public Working Group <public-svg-wg@w3.org>




       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

15 Jan 2009


       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0037.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-irc


           Shepazu, ed, heycam, jwatt, anthony, ChrisL




      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Sydney F2F update
          2. [6]ISSUE-2201
          3. [7]SVG 1.1 errata
          4. [8]ACTION-2380
      * [9]Summary of Action Items

    <trackbot> Date: 15 January 2009

    <scribe> Scribe: anthony

Sydney F2F update

    <ed> AG: f2f wikipage updated

    AG: I've updated the wiki page with location and where it will be



    AG: I sent an email to the list

    <ed> CL: will there be a phonebridge?

    <ed> AG: will try to get that sorted out with the hotel



    <trackbot> ISSUE-2201 -- Return value of
    SVGAnimationElement.getStartTime unclear -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201

      [11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201

    ED: We got an email to the public list
    ... this is from the Mozilla team


      [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0023.html

    CL: It should throw an exception if it hasn't got a value
    ... what happens if you have multiple start times
    ... It needs to return a list doesn't it?

    <ChrisL> should it return a list?

    DS: In that case we shouldn't change it in SVG 1.1 and change it in
    ... just a thought

    CMC: I don't know if it's best to change it to a list a this point

    DS: We could add a new method

    ED: I'd probably say we return the current start time of the first

    DS: That's good

    ED: Sort of makes it more useful
    ... that's the current interval you'd expect

    CMC: Opera seems to return a couple of values
    ... Brian seems to think that it's not as useful to return the
    previous interval
    ... It should return the start time of current or start time of next
    if that's available

    ED: I can have a look at the Opera code to see what it's doing

    DS: I like your suggestion Erik

    ED: Dunno how useful it is to have a set of start times/begin times
    ... we should probably try to clarify it for SVG 1.1
    ... we should investigate if that is adequate for future specs
    ... like return all the times
    ... the thing is you can't resolve all the times always

    CL: If you can't resolve the times you could thrown an exception

    ED: Probably most common when you have event based triggers

    DS: Could return NAN

    CMC: That's what we do in Batik

    DS: Is this defined completely by us or SMIL?

    CMC: I think it's by us

    ED: Yes this is by us


      [13] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#InterfaceSVGAnimationElement

    ED: So adding an exception when you can't compute a start time or
    when there is no start time
    ... does that seem like a good idea to add to errata?

    CMC: I feel like returning a value of some sort

    DS: Like NAN

    CMC: I doubt there is much code that relies on this

    ED: Sure, seems fine with me
    ... Are we fully agreed at what we should put in the errata item?

    CL: So you propose returning the current interval value?

    ED: Yes

    CL: I agree to that

    CMC: You can have end times as being indefinite, but maybe not begin
    ... what about duration?
    ... do you think leaving duration is ok as it is or should it return
    a value?

    ED: I would rather keep it as it is in that case
    ... it does say that it raises an exception if it is undefined
    ... I'd rather avoid it if we can
    ... so that probably argues for having an exception for getStartTime
    as well then

    DS: Even if we introduced a new method to return values later we
    shouldn't worry about that now
    ... the only thing we need to resolve then is that it returns the
    current interval at the moment

    <ed> "getStartTime: Returns the start time in seconds for this
    animation." -> "getStartTime: Returns the start time in seconds of
    the current interval for this animation."

    RESOLUTION: We will create an errata that introduces an exception
    when the start time is unresolved but returns the start time in
    seconds of the current interval for this animation when resolved

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata item for getStartTime
    that it introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2401 - Create an errata item for
    getStartTime that it introduces an exception when the start time is
    unresolved [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-01-22].

SVG 1.1 errata


    <trackbot> ACTION-2362 -- Erik Dahlström to backport the zero length
    path wording from 1.2T to this "Reword F.5 Tangents" erratum -- due
    2008-12-04 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362

      [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2362

    ED: That action was on me


      [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0038.html

    ED: I did some investigations and had some conclusions that I mailed
    to the list
    ... one of which was we haven't addressed zero length path issues
    that we raised
    ... the implementation notes say that it's path rendering only
    ... that it only applies for animation if there is a path to follow
    ... and there isn't any wording to back port

    CMC: You said yesterday that there was an action on Andrew

    ED: Yes, there was an action but it was never completed
    ... so we never got that wording
    ... comparing the wording there were some small changes
    ... but no substantial differences
    ... we could add a section that relates to animate motion and text

    CMC: So do you think we should take up that old action and make
    changes to both?

    ED: It would seem a bit strange to add an errata to 1.1 and not
    address it in Tiny
    ... we should reword it slightly?
    ... it wouldn't be a very large change I guess
    ... and can perhaps be simplified to use the same code for all the
    different directionality handling?

    CMC: Are we sure that the same behaviour is was we want?

    ED: I think that was part of the action that Andrew had to change

    CMC: I wonder if there are any tests that address this change?

    ED: Perhaps

    CMC: Do you think it needs investigation or just assume it?

    ED: I think it might be best to test it first
    ... perhaps for text path
    ... I could take an action to make some tests for this
    ... I will close action 2632 given that there is no wording to back

    CL: May have already been back ported

    DS: I do recall Andrew was going to look into a number of things for
    this action and that a number of resolutions were made
    ... can't remember what they were though

    ED: It does say in the spec that you can go forward or backwards in
    the data until you find directionality

    DS: It says that in 1.1?

    ED: I think so, just reading it here


      [17] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/implnote.html#PathElementImplementationNotes

    ED: Second major bullet point
    ... the second bullet point under that
    ... and that bullet point is very similar to 1.2 Tiny

    <ed> the bulletpoint that starts with "Certain line-capping and
    line-joining situations and markers"

    DS: I think another related issue is arc segments that begin on the
    end point. Currently we say don't render anything
    ... smarter way of doing it is either have something arbitary or
    scan back and forth through the path data
    ... or scan back through the time
    ... might be a bit unrealistic

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite to check
    if there are any tests for zero length paths that test for
    directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2402 - Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite
    to check if there are any tests for zero length paths that test for
    directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [on Erik
    Dahlström - due 2009-01-22].


    <trackbot> ACTION-2370 -- Erik Dahlström to go through the e-mailing
    thread for errata item "Sizing of the outermost svg" and update the
    item discussion -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370

      [19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2370


      [20] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#bzwidth

    ED: Errata item was empty I think
    ... I did add a few links to discussions
    ... I fixed XSL to fix a bug where if no author was listed it would
    omit the links
    ... I also added a few discussion links to this errata item


      [21] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#IntrinsicSizing

    ED: it seems we have fixed a few of the items that were asked about
    in 1.1
    ... one being intrinsic sizing


      [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/coords.html#InitialViewport

    ED: and wording on viewPort
    ... so here is a case where w could back port wording if we wanted
    ... we don't have any resolution, I couldn't find any in the minutes
    ... there was only some discussion on mailing lists and an action to
    create the item
    ... and also Boris seemed to be happy with what we had in 1.2 Tiny
    regarding this
    ... there doesn't seem to any minuted discussion this

    AG: Did we want to discuss this at the F2F?

    ED: We could, the wording could be taken across from 1.2 Tiny
    ... not sure if that's as easy as it sounds
    ... JWatt it would be good if you could take a look at the

    JW: I'd be happy to

    ED: If you can give your comments on this for the F2F that's be

    <ChrisL> trackbot, staus?

    <trackbot> Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, staus?'.
    Please refer to [23]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

    <ChrisL> trackbot, staus

    <trackbot> Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, staus'.
    Please refer to [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

    <ChrisL> trackbot, status

    <scribe> ACTION: Jonathan to Take a look at the discussions in the
    errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2403 - Take a look at the discussions in
    the errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [on Jonathan Watt - due


    <trackbot> ACTION-2386 -- Jonathan Watt to investigate the
    "SVGZoomEvent - Interface" errata item further -- due 2008-12-25 --

    <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2386

      [26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2386

    JW: Not very clear on what needs to be done there on that one


    <trackbot> ACTION-2368 -- Doug Schepers to propose wording for the
    change that addresses the errata item Current Translate Current
    Scale on nested SVG -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368

      [27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368

    DS: I sent an email about this


      [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0040.html

    DS: There are two alternatives, put it in the current defintion or
    at the top of the interface add some text

    JW: I don't really like that wording
    ... having alot of nested SVG elements and then having zoom on one
    makes it tricky

    <ed> <svg><foreignObject><svg>...</svg></foreignObject></svg>

    ED: Having an SVG with a foreignObject that reference an SVG root

    <ed> (and html around the svg elements in foreignObject)

    DS: This is something we need to solve this general problem for
    ... it acts as a barrier

    JW: The foreignObject in Mozilla doesn't really act as a barrier

    CL: If it's all in the one DOM then I agree there is no barrier then

    DS: That was the action I had was to state that
    ... throwing an exception is also acceptable

    ED: We could simply say it's undefined if you do that

    <ChrisL> yes its different by inclusion and by reference

    ED: and just define it for the root most SVG element

    JW: I guess for me it's not very clear what interface would separate
    Zooming and Panning in a document

    CL: The example to have Zooming and Panning on a document is you
    have a map
    ... in practice you may not want to do built in Zooming and Panning.
    But build in your own Zooming and Panning

    DS: If we have our own defined behaviour it might get used more
    ... I'm also with Erik here and say it's undefined

    JW: This is probably a good topic for the SYD F2F

    ED: My suggestion is to define it for rootmost SVG elements then for
    nested it's undefined

    JW: There is a distinction for SVG rootmost which is not the
    document element?

    DS: Correct

    JW: I'd say it's only defined for SVG document element

    DS: again this is an issue that we are going to talk alot about
    ... If we are going to have this discussion we should go with Erik's

    JW: That's what I'm saying is that we should say defined for
    document element

    CL: In a standard SVG file the document element and the rootmost are
    the same

    DS: I think that's what JWatt is saying is we can define it for
    standard SVG and leave it open for HTML
    ... but I wouldn't want to leave it open for that case

    ED: It wouldn't effect the surrounding language though?
    ... you'd expect to affect the SVG only

    CMC: I dunno if we've thought about it

    DS: We shouldn't mandate what happens in other languages

    CMC: I agree with what JWatt is saying that if you have SVG in HTML

    JW: For what it's worth Mozilla will ignore it if it's not the
    document element

    DS: So if you have an inline SVG in HTML and you change the current
    scale and current translate in that SVG it has no effect?

    JW: Correct

    DS: I would find that not very useful
    ... for example if have an SVG map in HTML and I had HTML controls
    for zooming and panning then I'd like to do that

    ED: Seems like a good topic for a F2F

    DS: I will make an amended version
    ... then we can discuss whether want rootmost and document element
    ... We had a discussion about the errata on root overflow
    ... but it looks like I didn't add that to the errata
    ... I would like to see it in the released errata

    JW: Which one is this?

    DS: The errata on root overflow

    ED: I agree with what was agreed on

    <shepazu> ACTION: add errata item for root overflow [recorded in

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add

    <shepazu> ACTION: shepazu to add errata item for root overflow
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2404 - Add errata item for root overflow
    [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-01-22].


    <ed> AG: probably no breakage from merging approved and accepted

    <ed> ...the XSLT that generates the report needs to be checked

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: add errata item for root overflow [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata item for getStartTime that
    it introduces an exception when the start time is unresolved
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to Go through the 1.2 Tiny test suite to check if
    there are any tests for zero length paths that test for
    directionality and add those to the 1.1 Full test suite [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to Take a look at the discussions in the
    errata item 2370 before the SYD F2F [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: shepazu to add errata item for root overflow [recorded
    in [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    [End of minutes]

     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [36]scribe.perl version 1.133
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     $Date: 2009/01/15 21:07:32 $

      [36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Agenda: [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMa
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      [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0037.html
      [40] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-svg-minutes.html

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