- From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:23:47 +1000
- To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html
---
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
20 Apr 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0046.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], anthony, ed_, +1.339.524.aaaa,
ChrisL
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
anthony
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]1.2T list-of-string data type issue
2. [6]Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox
3. [7]1.2T list-of-string data type issue (again)
4. [8]Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox (again)
5. [9]SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile"
keyword
6. [10]SVG 1.1 Second Edition update
7. [11]ISSUE-2266: Correct Role Module Reference
8. [12]Child element order differences between SVG 1.1 and SVG
Tiny 1.2
9. [13]Allowable presentation attributes
* [14]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 20 April 2009
<scribe> Scribe: anthony
1.2T list-of-string data type issue
<heycam>
[15]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090408054239.GA31922@bowman.infotech.mon
ash.edu.au
[15]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20090408054239.GA31922@bowman.infotech.monash.edu.au
CM: Pointing out there's a problem with list-of-strings
<ChrisL> need to disallow spaces in strings
CM: I have some overdue action in looking at this syntax
... I can solve this at the same time
CL: Do you say any character minus the following?
... for Unicode
... I need to have a string that doesn't have commas?
... is that what I wanted for colour profiles?
ED: I think so
<heycam> SpacelessAndCommalessValues ::= [^, ]*
ED: I'm not sure
<heycam> that's valid EBNF afaik
<ChrisL> cheers
ED: You probably want to escape those
DS: There are also certain values
... because we don't control them
... they have to be space separated
CL: We should probably disallow them
... instead of allowing them
... because if we move to separated lists, we don't what to end up
with commas
... in the middle of a string
DS: We were moving towards having commas
CL: For Tiny we should tighten it to disallow commas in the middle
of a string
... and we have semicolons?
... maybe we should disallow those?
DS: I think they are already disallowed?
<ChrisL> lists of lists
CL: I thought we had list of lists that used semicolons?
CM: List of points for a the animation attributes
CL: Any syntactic characters we shouldn't allow
... maybe it's too much
CM: So I'll look at cleaning that up when I get to the action
... The second part of the email asks about allow listing content
types
CL: Some content types like video audio take the codec as the
content type
... so we do need to be able to separate them
DS: Like semicolon
CM: When writing these media types without parameters you could
probably do it without spaces
DS: I think people are likely to put a space in
<ChrisL> [16]http://www.rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/2361/index.html WAVE
and AVI Codec Registries
[16] http://www.rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/2361/index.html
CM: I don't think it's likely we can put it all in one list type
DS: We should document these cases
AG: Wiki them
CM: So I'll look into that at the same time
CL: The examples in the RFC do include space
... but after the semicolon in all the examples
CM: They might allow all sorts of things inside quotes
<ChrisL> "Video codecs within the AVI Registry are identified by AVI
Codec IDs.
<ChrisL> The AVI Codec ID value is a FourCC encoding. A FourCC is
32-bits long
<ChrisL> and represents a (case-sensitive) four-character (i.e.,
ASCII) code
<ChrisL> value. These codecs may be referenced within the IANA
namespace as
<ChrisL> "video/vnd.avi; codec=XXX", where XXX represents a valid
AVI Codec ID
<ChrisL> (e.g., the WAVE Format ID of "SCRN" is referenced within
the IANA
<ChrisL> namespace by "video/vnd.avi; codec=SCRN").
<ChrisL> "
CL: I think that means it's for ASCII characters
... those ones
CM: Ok, I'll reply to the email and tell Peter we will deal with it
in due course
Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox
<heycam>
[17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0051.html
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0051.html
CL: We should clearly test when the viewBox doesn't start with 0 0
... I have done markers like this
... which are centered on the origin
... but you have set the clipping
ED: I discussed this with JWatt
... and it's suppose to clip to View Port
... Opera and FireFox are currently clipping to the viewBox
... not the View Port
<ChrisL> which is wrong
CM: So the difference being aspect ratio conversion
ED: The View Port is typically bigger than the viewBox
... I did write up a couple of test cases
... JWatt had one as well
... I could try to convert that to the W3C template
... and commit those
CL: We could duplicate the test and add his modification
CM: Is there any problem with just taking the test?
CL: He can't modify the test
... we should keep paint-marker-01f
... duplicate it and add changes
<shepazu> [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/List_Syntax
[18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/List_Syntax
1.2T list-of-string data type issue (again)
DS: In CSS they have rules for spaces
CL: What they say in CSS that is if you don't quote multiple spaces
it will collaps it
DS: Could we say that for our lists that if you want to have
characters that are commas
... colons or spaces you have to quote the string?
CM: You mean double quotes?
DS: Double or single
CM: Backslash
... double quotes could be away around that
... we could have a different type of list of strings that allows
quotes around values
... it might be that the more restrictive types for the URIs don't
need the quotes
... maybe that would be the extent of the lists
Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox (again)
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add
Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge
[recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2519 - Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f
and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to
Jorge [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-04-27].
SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword
SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword
CM: Don't know exactly what's being pointed out - because I haven't
read it yet
<ChrisL>
[20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/f
ull-color-prof-01-f.html
[20]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/full-color-prof-01-f.html
CL: If you look at that
... and view source
... has "<meta name="keywords" content="W3C SVG 1.1 Test Suite
testsuite mobile"/>"
... The way around it is to remove the word mobile
ED: I think the script that generates the harness has two options
<ChrisL> just remove the word "mobile" next time we regenerate the
tests
CL: Next time we refresh it we will take the word out
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Reply to Helder's email saying that we
will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
[recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2520 - Reply to Helder's email saying that
we will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
[on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-04-27].
SVG 1.1 Second Edition update
[22]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/
[22] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/
CL: The link doesn't have all the files needed
CM: Not all the chapters are being built yet
... I wanted to point out
... that I've updated the list of editors
... the criteria I used was
... include the former editors, people that have added errata text,
and people that are editing the spec files
... Oliver has made an errata entry
... so I thought that was a reasonable criteria for adding editors
to the 1.1F 2nd spec
<heycam> that's here:
[23]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/
[23] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/
JW: I''m fine with being added
<ChrisL> [24]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/types.html
[24] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/types.html
CL: In the data types chapter
... would you mind sorting that so the list of types are in
alphabetical order
... like they are in Tiny 1.2
AG: That should definitely be changed
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd
so that they are alphabetical [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2521 - Change the order of the types in
1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical [on Chris Lilley - due
2009-04-27].
<heycam>
[26]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#BasicDat
aTypes isn't ordered
[26] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#BasicDataTypes
CM: What I've plan to do is once the rest of chapters are being
generated properly
... I'll do some diffs with the original 1.1F
... and then we can start putting in the Errata
DS: So the thing that Chris is doing is changing the RNG or the
Output?
CL: I'm changing the master types.html
DS: Just wanted to make sure changes wouldn't be overridden
CM: Perhaps I'll ping Oliver and see if cares about the editors list
ISSUE-2266: Correct Role Module Reference
ISSUE-2266?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2266 -- Correct Role Module Reference -- RAISED
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2266
[27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2266
DS: Simply a typo
... just needs to be changed
CL: Are you going to fix it then?
DS: I could do
... do we need to issue an errata for this?
CL: I believe so
CM: Hearing no objections we should issue an errata
RESOLUTION: We will create an errata for ISSUE-2266
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266
[recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2522 - Create an errata to address
ISSUE-2266 [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-04-27].
Child element order differences between SVG 1.1 and SVG Tiny 1.2
[29]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417053216.GE9802@arc.mcc.id.au
[29] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417053216.GE9802@arc.mcc.id.au
CM: Pointing out that in 1.1 there is some restriction in element
order that doesn't exist in 1.2T
CL: Over time we thought it was good practice to have those things
at the top
... there is not practical draw back to having a description at the
end for example
... if we require it to be at the beginning then I think you'll find
UAs will allow it to go anywhere
ED: I don't mind removing the restriction in the DTD
... as long as the spec says it's better to put it at the top
DS: I think it's reasonable to tell people that as a practice
... put it at the top
... because it helps for readability
... but doesn't effect the processing
... do we say what happens if we have more than one title or
description?
ED: Yes we do
<ed_>
[30]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElemen
ts
[30] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements
ED: [reads out part of spec]
JW: Could we strongly encourage that it should be the first child
elements of the elements it's the title of?
CL: Why do you think it's good to have it at the top?
JW: When used as a tool tip. You have your target of the mouse over,
you're basically looking up the all the elements of the parent to
... find the title
CL: Some UAs might be impacted
... they could construct a pointer to it when they see it, rather
than do tree manipulation for every mouse over
CM: So if the title is not the first child then you definitely wont
show the tool tip?
JW: There issues as some of it is implemented in Java script
... and there would be problems changing it
CM: Would you want the text to say that if it's not the first child
then the UA doesn't have to render it?
DS: We went in that direction in Tiny 1.2
CL: We started moving towards moving to have a tooltip element in
Full 1.2
DS: Anthony suggested to have an role on title to indicate what the
title did
... Can't remember if it was put in there as an example in the spec
<ChrisL> close ACTION-2521
<trackbot> ACTION-2521 Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so
that they are alphabetical closed
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if
title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render
it [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2523 - Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that
if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally
render it [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27].
<shepazu> [[In order to honor authorial intent, it is strongly
recommended that when, and only when, the appropriate 'role'
attribute value is present, user agents display the text content of
the applicable 'title' and 'desc' elements in a highly visible
manner supported by the user agent, such as in a tooltip or status
bar, when the pointing device is hovered over the described element
or elements, or when the described element is given focus (e.g.,
through keyboard or
<heycam> ACTION-2523: and remove the restriction on child element
order from the DTD
<trackbot> ACTION-2523 Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title
is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it
notes added
CM: Something you might want to port back to 1.1?
DS: Seems relevant
... but 1.1 doesn't have the role attribute
Allowable presentation attributes
<heycam>
[32]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417055354.GF9802@arc.mcc.id.au
[32] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417055354.GF9802@arc.mcc.id.au
CM: In Full 1.1 they are limited
CL: People argued that the DTD should be used to validate properties
on an element
... I think that any property should be able to placed on any
element
DS: Was this fixed in 1.2T?
CL: Yes
DS: I would consider it to be a feature of a validator that which
properties don't apply to the element
CL: To my mind that's not a validator but an optimiser
... based what is actually there
... separate for validation
... it's an authoring tool
<shepazu> [33]https://launchpad.net/scour
[33] https://launchpad.net/scour
CM: Couple of questions about Tiny
... I think at one point we were toying with the idea that display
controlled how title was used
... I'm not sure if it was because of that
... the media properties were put on those
... it doesn't seem very useful
CL: Yes, it doesn't seem very useful
CM: Could issue an errata
CL: I don't really have an opion
... it doesn't really hurt, but at the same time it's not a good
idea
CM: The next question I have is why are only media properties
allowed on <image>
... Should we issue an errata?
<ChrisL> i hadn't really twigged before that 'media' was all
properties that don't conflict with smil "fill"
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata to address the
questions in the email sent [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2524 - Create an errata to address the
questions in the email sent [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27].
<shepazu> [35]http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html
[35] http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Reply to Helder's email saying that we will
change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
[recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if
title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render
it [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata to address the questions
in the email sent [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so
that they are alphabetical [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266
[recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add
Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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$Date: 2009/04/20 08:16:17 $
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[42] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[43] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Found Scribe: anthony
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Default Present: Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], anthony, ed_, +1.339.524.aa
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Present: Doug_Schepers [IPcaller] anthony ed_ +1.339.524.aaaa ChrisL
Agenda: [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJu
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Found Date: 20 Apr 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [46]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony cameron chris doug erik
[45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0046.html
[46] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html
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Received on Monday, 20 April 2009 08:24:35 UTC