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Minutes, SVG telcon Tuesday 14 October 2008

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:12:55 +1100
Message-ID: <48F48CC7.6080105@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: W3C SVG Public Working Group <public-svg-wg@w3.org>




       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

14 Oct 2008

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/14-svg-irc


           Doug_Schepers, aemmons, anthony, ed_, lmartine, NH,
           +95249aaaa, ChrisL

           Andrew Emmons



      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Marathon Telephone Conferences
          2. [5]Implementation Progress
          3. [6]Last Call Comments
          4. [7]ISSUE-2082
          5. [8]ISSUE-2073
          6. [9]ISSUE-2080
          7. [10]ISSUE-2093
          8. [11]ISSUE-2121
          9. [12]ISSUE-2126
         10. [13]ISSUE-2129
         11. [14]ISSUE-2130
         12. [15]ISSUE-2131
         13. [16]ISSUE-2130
      * [17]Summary of Action Items

    <trackbot> Date: 14 October 2008

    <scribe> scribe: anthony

    <ChrisL> just coming, finishing up discussion with r12a


      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0105.html


      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0104.html

Marathon Telephone Conferences

    AE: There was a request for Marathon Telephone Conferences

    DS: What about tomorrow night?

    AG: I'll probably be a bit late

    NH: I'll probably be late as well

    DS: What about Thursday?

    CL: Can't really make Thursday

    DS: We can do multiple ones

    CL: Yes why don't we do that

    <ChrisL> Can make some of Thusday but has a lot of conflicts

    CL: I can sign on for Wed

    <ChrisL> I can sign on for weds all day

    NH: Can make tomorrow afternoon

    CL: 10 - 6 Europe time

    DS: Why don't we schedule tomorrow
    ... and see how we go
    ... if not we can go again Thursday

    AE: Someone will need to email with the details

    CL: So it will be 4am to 1pm Eastern

    DS: I doubt I'll be able to make it that early

    <ChrisL> Its fine, you can join later i have to leave early thursday

    <ChrisL> 10am to 18:00 europe

    <ChrisL> 4 to 12 EST

    <ChrisL> 7pm to 3am for Sydney :(

Implementation Progress


      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0042.html


      [21] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/results/TestFestOttawa.html

    DS: Ed and I agreed it would be best to do the table



    ED: I checked in a separate file with all the at risk test cases
    ... and that's the table I've been updating
    ... I'll probably be making more changes to the table
    ... but we need to discuss test first
    ... blue on the table means that someone was given an action to
    ... the ones that are marked in Grey are not at risk anymore

    <ChrisL> text-align-202-t.svg

    CL: I can discuss text-align-202-t.svg
    ... I had an action to remove the direction attribute
    ... It was raised on SVG 1.1 it had to be set on every element
    ... so if you have Arabic you could set it an off you go
    ... I still do have to update the RelaxNG

    ED: It's inherited so it's not a problem for us

    <ChrisL> will add to svg and g elements as well as text elements

    DS: As an author I do that sort of thing all the time

    <ChrisL> so do I

    DS: I'll typically put the font-family on a root knowing it only
    applies to text elements and not shapes

    <ChrisL> Abbra expects to have the unicode bidi done in time

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Add direction to the RelaxNG [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2291 - Add direction to the RelaxNG [on
    Chris Lilley - due 2008-10-21].

    <ChrisL> Opera just added it

    <ChrisL> Inkscape passes

    CL: Inkscape passes it

    DS: Should talk to Motorola for some of these

    ED: So far there hasn't been any updates to the table
    ... still haven't seen any

    NH: Haven't done anything yet

    TPAC-atrisk-verify.html shows no updates yet


    LM: I can send an email with the updates

    ED: I have one test that I'd like to discuss


      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0116.html

    LM: We'll pass linking-frag-203, styling-inherit-03, media-video-215

    DS: That will bring it down to 15

    ED: udom-svg-224
    ... and that test
    ... is expecting the wrong exception type
    ... the test seems to be expecting not supported error
    ... the spec seems to need an update and it is also using invalid
    ... I propose to change the spec
    ... invalid access error
    ... I'd be ok with having both in error and unsupported values
    covered (if error still exists)


      [26] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/svgudom.html#svg__TraitAccess

    ED: It's in the last sentence in that paragraph

    CL: Sounds good to me
    ... we generally got away from the idea of in error

    ED: I also have all the changes to the tests ready to commit
    ... it's mostly editorial
    ... no changes that affect the tests

    LM: You'll be changing the test criteria
    ... ?

    ED: [goes through changes]

    CL: Sounds good to me

    ED: There is a test there called udom-svg-220
    ... it's not at risk
    ... but I'm not sure about it

    LM: Concern about the change with udom-svg-224

    ED: I think it's low risk for you, I don't think you'll fail it

    AE: I'd say the we should be careful of the changes
    ... we should probably go ahead with it

    ED: I can do the changes and send the email out
    ... to give people a chance to test

    AE: I'd encourage implementations to test on as soon as possible

    NH: I have a question about media-audio-215
    ... it's about clamping audio level

    <ed_> ACTION: ed to update udom-svg-220 and 224 and the spec as
    indicated in
    6.html [recorded in

      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0116.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2292 - Update udom-svg-220 and 224 and the
    spec as indicated in
    6.html [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-10-21].

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0116.html

    NH: usually with clamping you clamp as late as possible
    ... the test expects to clamp 2 and multiple by 0.5
    ... which is 0.5
    ... but we multiple 2 by 0.5 then clamp it

    CL: If the clamping is done as a last step then it shouldn't matter
    the order the
    ... terms are multiplied

    NH: The test expects you clamp at each step

    CL: What does the spec say/

    NH: Doesn't say

    CL: It seems to me that there would be a loss of functionality
    ... so if you have a group around so you could only decrease

    DS: If we change this would that make bitflash not pass?

    NH: Maybe
    ... We should clarify the spec

    AG: We've done this already twice

    AE: Niklas can you send an email to clarify your thoughts

    <ChrisL> it looks as if the spec isd not clear about early clamping
    for audio

    CL: I'm about to edit that one as agreed
    ... it currently has the direction property on it
    ... so I'm taking it out again
    ... having it there doesn't change anything

    DS: Is that something Abbra is going to pass (text-align-202)?
    ... media-audio-206 they could work on
    ... and that would help
    ... udom-209/215

    AE: Do we have sufficient coverage?
    ... for example constrained transforms may need some work

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to Add constrained transform tests to the
    table [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2293 - Add constrained transform tests to
    the table [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-10-21].

    AE: I guess I could go through the raw spreadsheet, but that was the
    only red flag holding us up
    ... we may have interoperability problems if we let constrained
    transforms go

Last Call Comments

    <aemmons> [31]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/raised

      [31] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/raised




    <trackbot> ISSUE-2082 -- attributeType auto -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [32]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2082

      [32] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2082


      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Oct/0111.html

    DS: Can move to the next one this is pretty involved



    <trackbot> ISSUE-2073 -- inverse and constrained transformations --

    <trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2073

      [34] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2073

    AG: Got a response with better wording

    DS: I think it's fine



    <trackbot> ISSUE-2080 -- Clarify focusable=auto -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2080

      [35] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2080

    ED: I added the text to the spec
    ... just pending review form Ikivo

    <shepazu> [36]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2093

      [36] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2093



    <trackbot> ISSUE-2093 -- 16.2.9 by 'identity' -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2093

      [37] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2093

    DS: It is a bit unclear what he is asking for

    AG: I'm not sure

    DS: I'm think he wants us to add what the identity value for types

    CL: I think we did get around this
    ... by saying the starting 0 is the one that has no effect
    ... it's the value that doesn't do anything
    ... if you multiply an RGB colour by 0 you get the same result
    ... basically list all of them out
    ... we could use identity and see what he says
    ... he quotes the wording form the SMIL spec
    ... we could stick that exact wording in there
    ... and then quote the identity matrix

    DS: We could stick in what he's got there
    ... which gives examples

    RESOLUTION: Clarify by values of 0

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Reply to Dr. Hoffmann regarding ISSUE-2093
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2296 - Reply to Dr. Hoffmann regarding
    ISSUE-2093 [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-10-21].

    <shepazu> [39]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2121

      [39] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2121


    DS: I seem to recall we decided to leave the reference to elliptical
    arcs in

    CL: In this case I don't see a problem with removing this
    ... because it doesn't add much
    ... we could add an example
    ... I think removing the parenthetical is ok

    DS: Would we be removing too much information then?
    ... we could just comment it out and say use this for full

    CL: I've got the spec open and I can do it now

    DS: Do you want to respond him

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Respond to Helder regarding the change on
    ISSUE-2121 [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2297 - Respond to Helder regarding the
    change on ISSUE-2121 [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-10-21].

    <shepazu> [41]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2126

      [41] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2126


    DS: Easy to discuss, but lengthy to accomplish

    <scribe> ACTION: Emmons to Add lacuna wording for attribute
    definitions regarding ISSUE-2126 [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2298 - Add lacuna wording for attribute
    definitions regarding ISSUE-2126 [on Andrew Emmons - due

    <ChrisL> close action-2297

    <trackbot> ACTION-2297 Respond to Helder regarding the change on
    ISSUE-2121 closed

    <shepazu> [43]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2129

      [43] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2129


    DS: I think it might be worth splitting it out to the coords and
    viewBox chapter
    ... and have a small definition
    ... he explains what basically needs to be done

    <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Make edits to split out bounding box
    definition regarding ISSUE-2129 [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2299 - Make edits to split out bounding
    box definition regarding ISSUE-2129 [on Anthony Grasso - due

    <shepazu> [45]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2130

      [45] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2130


    DS: Skip this one for now

    <shepazu> [46]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2131

      [46] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2131


    DS: Simple typo

    <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Fix the typo in the spec regarding
    ISSUE-2131 [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2300 - Fix the typo in the spec regarding
    ISSUE-2131 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-10-21].


    CL: The first one
    ... is to explain NC name
    ... the second is simple and obvious
    ... provide an example
    ... the first two are trivial
    ... it's not clear where we make the attribute table from

    ED: Schema I think

    DS: You mean the attribute table in the appendix?

    CL: If you look at the master it's empty

    ED: I know for a fact it pulls out things from the schema for
    whether attributes&props are animatable

    DS: There is an attribute table and an attribute table template

    CL: I only see attribute table in published

    DS: I see an attribute table in master

    CL: Maybe created by a script?




      [49] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/attributeTable.html

    <shepazu> <list-of-strings>

    <shepazu> <ListOfString>

    CL: Could've lost a change

    ED: If you changed the schema then it would be correct

    <ChrisL> list-of-string does not appear in tools/tables/makeTable.pl

    <shepazu> [50]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2125

      [50] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2125

    <shepazu> <ListOfStrings>

    <shepazu> <ListOfString>

    DS: I found ListOfString

    <ChrisL> In the perl I see String => 'string'

    <ChrisL> wonder about adding Strings => 'list-ofstring'

    <ChrisL> wonder about adding Strings => 'list-ofstrings'



    CL: I wounder if that change will be ok
    ... ok so it's in the RNG

    DS: in the prose we call it list-of-strings
    ... Wondering if was adding a temporary version

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Propose wording for ISSUE-2130 [recorded
    in [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/14-svg-minutes.html#action09]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2301 - Propose wording for ISSUE-2130 [on
    Chris Lilley - due 2008-10-21].

    <ChrisL> so in the end, was it ListOfStrings with an S that we
    wanted it to be?

    <ed_> list-of-strings in the attributetable I believe, but
    ListOfStrings in the schema?

    <ChrisL> ok. schema currently has ListOfString

    <ChrisL> I will change that (all occurences)

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Fix the typo in the spec regarding
    ISSUE-2131 [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Make edits to split out bounding box
    definition regarding ISSUE-2129 [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Add direction to the RelaxNG [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Propose wording for ISSUE-2130 [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Reply to Dr. Hoffmann regarding ISSUE-2093
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Respond to Helder regarding the change on
    ISSUE-2121 [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update udom-svg-220 and 224 and the spec as
    indicated in
    6.html [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Emmons to Add lacuna wording for attribute definitions
    regarding ISSUE-2126 [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to Add constrained transform tests to the table
    [recorded in

      [59] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0116.html

    [End of minutes]

     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [63]scribe.perl version 1.133
     ([64]CVS log)
     $Date: 2008/10/14 12:11:10 $

      [63] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [64] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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      [65] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/updateing/updating/
Succeeded: s/certain ones/text elements and not shapes/
Succeeded: s/animation/whether attributes&props are animatable/
Succeeded: s/pros/prose/
Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Default Present: Doug_Schepers, aemmons, anthony, ed_, lmartine, NH, +9
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Present: Doug_Schepers aemmons anthony ed_ lmartine NH +95249aaaa Chris
Found Date: 14 Oct 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [66]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/14-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony chris ed emmons erik

      [66] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/14-svg-minutes.html

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