Minutes, SVG Sophia-Antipolis F2F Day 2, Tuesday 20 May 2008

Minutes generated manually from IRC Log: 
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-svg-irc.txt

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08:11:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
08:11:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-svg-irc
08:11:12 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
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08:11:14 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
08:11:14 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled 
within the next hour, trackbot-ng
08:11:15 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
08:11:15 <trackbot-ng> Date: 20 May 2008
08:11:24 <ChrisL> zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go home
08:11:24 <Zakim> ok, ChrisL
08:11:35 <ChrisL> topic: Adobe, SVG and eBooks
08:11:37 <ChrisL> 
http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm
08:13:41 <ChrisL> 
http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm .
08:14:09 <ChrisL> http://markmail.org/message/mxcmubdgh7xzkccb
08:15:09 <ChrisL> Present: Leonard Rosenthal (Adobe), Doug, Erik, 
Andrew, Anthony, Tony, Chris
08:19:00 <ed> http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html
08:19:39 <ed> "OPS Reading Systems must support SVG (Scalable Vector 
Graphics) as an OPS Core Media Type."
08:47:36 <ChrisL> trackbot-ng, status
08:47:43 <ChrisL> trackbot-ng, action-1?
08:47:54 <ChrisL> trackbot-ng, action-1
08:48:37 <ChrisL> Topic: 1.2T test suite sprint
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09:58:00 <ed> 
http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/
11:39:22 <ed> ed has joined #svg
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11:54:05 <anthony> scribe: anthony
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11:54:19 <anthony> Chair: Andrew Emmons
11:54:34 <anthony> Topic: Circular references in use
11:55:11 <ChrisL> ChrisL has changed the topic to: Sunny Vacations Goers
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11:59:59 <shepazu> <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
11:59:59 <shepazu>  <g id="group-1">
11:59:59 <shepazu>     <circle cx='25' cy='25' r='20' fill='red' />
12:00:00 <shepazu>     <use xlink:href="#group-2" />
12:00:00 <shepazu>  </g>
12:00:00 <shepazu>  <g id="group-2">
12:00:02 <shepazu>     <circle cx='75' cy='25' r='20' fill='green' />
12:00:04 <shepazu>     <use xlink:href="#group-1" />
12:00:06 <shepazu>  </g>
12:00:08 <shepazu>  <rect x='5' y='55' width='40' height='40' fill='blue' />
12:00:10 <shepazu> </svg>
12:00:15 <anthony> DS: prepared a test case
12:00:30 <anthony> ... [Describes test case]
12:00:40 <anthony> ... clearly a circular reference
12:00:48 <anthony> ... do we want this to be an error?
12:00:59 <anthony> ... or do we want this to be invalid content...
12:01:16 <anthony> ED: invalid IRI is what I was thinking
12:02:05 <anthony> ... currently says in the linking table that it's an 
error
12:02:18 <anthony> AE: You can still proceed with rendering the rect?
12:02:32 <anthony> DS: No it's sufficiently unclear
12:02:45 <anthony> AE: We have test already with transparency
12:02:56 <ed> 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#ReferenceRestrictions
12:03:23 <anthony> ... and the different levels of transparency indicate 
how many times you've gone through
12:03:35 <anthony> DS: What happens when we encounter this case?
12:03:46 <anthony> ... there are three interpretations for this
12:05:11 <anthony> LR: The certain graphic operations where you can 
encounter an error
12:05:32 <anthony> ... this operation shouldn't affect other operations
12:06:08 <anthony> DS: So this would happen with incorrect attribute values
12:06:51 <anthony> ... in 1.1 we would've said stop rendering if you 
find an error
12:07:24 <anthony> ... in 1.2 if you find an error in the value you 
continue on
12:07:46 <anthony> TZ: Do you display the error on the screen?
12:08:04 <aemmons> 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/implnote.html#ErrorProcessing
12:08:58 <anthony> AE: I think the error processing model we have we 
should be rendering the document
12:09:19 <anthony> ED: So the IRI has some specific handling?
12:12:43 <anthony> TZ: If you were to serialise the DOM back do you get 
the same DOM?
12:14:32 <anthony> ... if you have DOM element already created how do 
you know it's an error?
12:15:01 <anthony> ... have to have a way to show the user that it's an 
error
12:15:21 <anthony> DS: We can provide an indication of an error
12:16:47 <anthony> ... [Gives an example of authoring tool and viewer 
errors displayed]
12:17:23 <anthony> ... How debugging is handled doesn't effect the user 
experience
12:17:39 <anthony> ... it doesn't affect how the user views it
12:18:37 <anthony> LR: Pose this from a different stand point. There is 
no way to put in a script that would validates onload
12:18:45 <anthony> ... this is something that author would want
12:19:22 <anthony> DS: That is something would belong in the Window 
interface
12:19:37 <anthony> AE: JSR226 has very strict error handling
12:19:58 <anthony> ... I can see the point that you load this content 
and there is an exception
12:20:09 <anthony> ... it would be useful to know which element
12:20:33 <anthony> ... but I'm hesitant because it increases the footprint
12:20:46 <anthony> LR: That couldn't be embedded in the SVG?
12:20:53 <anthony> DS: It would be in a script
12:21:11 <anthony> ... and done in the Window interface
12:21:53 <anthony> TZ: If I was just to hand write content and put it in 
Opera
12:22:07 <anthony> ... I would hate for errors to be ignored
12:22:20 <anthony> ... when developing the content
12:22:45 <anthony> ED: There is an error console and a debugging tool
12:23:50 <anthony> DS: What if we said in C2 and C3 a UA that encounters 
unsupported content or an error should provide an indication to authors 
what the error was
12:24:21 <anthony> ... you may not want for security reasons the users 
to get at your files in non-debugging cases
12:24:44 <anthony> TZ: There is no access to the DOM
12:24:56 <anthony> AE: A way forward would be the Window interface
12:25:03 <anthony> DS: Should apply to all HTML etc
12:28:58 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to adding wording about a UA providing 
where the error is and a reason for the error in a debugging environment
12:28:59 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2022 - Adding wording about a UA 
providing where the error is and a reason for the error in a debugging 
environment [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27].
12:29:12 <anthony> AE: So about the linking
12:29:29 <anthony> ... It should an unsupported attribute value
12:30:25 <ed> 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/struct.html#UseElement
12:30:36 <anthony> ED: [Reads out use element]
12:30:53 <anthony> DS: Those should be reversed
12:31:05 <anthony> CL: Would make more sense to word it that way
12:31:49 <anthony> DS: We should say circular refs and other things the 
first circular ref will be treated as if it were an unsupported value
12:31:59 <anthony> CL: Don't want to say it becomes
12:32:04 <anthony> ... want to say it's treated as
12:32:23 <anthony> AE: Need clarification about as soon it is detected
12:32:46 <anthony> DS: We should say something about Lacuna values
12:32:55 <anthony> ... is that what we want to happen?
12:33:12 <anthony> ... if there is an unsupported attribute value?
12:33:20 <anthony> .... I was going to put that in C2
12:33:44 <anthony> ... by putting it in here we cover everything
12:33:56 <anthony> AE: There may be some specifics for use
12:35:32 <aemmons> ACTION: Doug to modify linking reference regarding 
circular reference. When a circular reference is detected it will be 
treated as an unsupported attribute value
12:35:32 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2023 - Modify linking reference 
regarding circular reference. When a circular reference is detected it 
will be treated as an unsupported attribute value [on Doug Schepers - 
due 2008-05-27].
12:38:12 <aemmons> ACTION, Doug to update C.2, point 2, that since it's 
'as if the value has not been specified', that it will be as if the 
lacuna value was used
12:38:52 <ChrisL> since we already say in the spec that an invalid value 
is treated as if not specified
12:39:11 <ChrisL> ... and thus, we can state that it renders as if the 
value was not specified
12:39:21 <ChrisL> ... which is the same as the lacuna value
12:39:56 <ChrisL> .. and also makes it clearf that the dom does not 
change (the invalid value is still in the dom)
12:40:06 <anthony> DS: If you look at my original example you see that 
I'm referencing a group
12:40:45 <anthony> ... at what point does it detect there is a circular 
reference?
12:40:56 <anthony> CL: Need to be careful there
12:41:29 <anthony> ... depends on how linking is done
12:42:43 <anthony> DS: We just agreed that circular references are not 
allowed
12:42:55 <anthony> AE: At the first point of detection
12:43:10 <anthony> ... but the first point of detection is 
implementation specific
12:44:03 <anthony> DS: We should either say something about it or we 
shouldn't
12:44:09 <anthony> AE: We do say something
12:44:52 <anthony> ... we don't allow circular references and you should 
stop at the first point of detection
12:45:29 <anthony> DS: In my example the use references group 2
12:46:06 <anthony> ... it doesn't render the use of group 2 but does the 
use of group 1 include the green circle?
12:46:10 <anthony> AE: I'd say yes
12:46:29 <anthony> DS: That's not what we say
12:46:46 <anthony> ED: I think for use we would detect it when we get to 
group 2 the 2nd time
12:47:10 <anthony> DS: The action is it doesn't render the action itself 
is we say an unsupported value
12:47:44 <anthony> CL: There is no interoperable rendering of that
12:48:04 <anthony> ... you could go through and figure out that you had 
circular references
12:48:26 <anthony> AE: I don't think you can get interoperability on this
12:48:46 <anthony> CL: This is known to cause issues don't do it
12:48:56 <anthony> AE: So do you test for this?
12:50:06 <anthony> CL: We should say if you are putting this in then 
you'll get varying output
12:50:43 <anthony> ... I propose that we put something in
12:50:52 <anthony> ... in D.3.1
12:52:04 <ChrisL> Put it in D.3.1 Conforming SVG Document Fragments so 
that content with circular references is not conformant
12:52:38 <ChrisL> That makes it clear not to rely on particular 
rendering of it, sinjce the point at which circularity is detected can vary
12:54:04 <anthony> ACTION: doug to add wording to the specification that 
content with circular references is not conformant
12:54:04 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2024 - Add wording to the 
specification that content with circular references is not conformant 
[on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27].
12:55:19 <anthony> TZ: Coming from industry I don't think this is a 
robust way to deal with this
12:56:01 <anthony> ED: We could put something in the appendix for 
editors to give a warning
12:57:27 <anthony> TZ: To me it is more logical to set something to 
(flag) say it is an error
12:58:16 <anthony> DS: The wording already provides a way to meet your 
requirements
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15:28:13 <ChrisL> http://www.adobe.com/products/digitaleditions/
15:47:35 <ChrisL> http://www.balisage.net/Versioning/index.html
15:51:47 <shepazu> zakim, bye
15:51:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
15:51:56 <shepazu> rssagent, make minutes
16:11:24 <Zakim> ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
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