- From: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 09:50:05 -0500
- To: "Chaals McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
- Cc: public-svg-a11y@w3.org
- Message-Id: <201602111531.u1BFVSA6023687@d03av02.boulder.ibm.com>
Chaals,
Since you and Leonie have a standing meeting conflict. It would be good if
you all could as clearly as possible express your opinions on list.
Two topics we will discuss next Tuesday are
Inline SVG in W3C documents
Tests that test elements after the first element with markup (that
should get included in the accessibility tree)*
Hopefully folks will have actions done and we will have lots of actions and
issues to review as well. (Hint, hint)
Can you and Leonie - as clearly as possible provide your inputs on these
topics in list, before Tuesday?
* I extracted this issue from your statements in the email about browsers
going to the first item with a title stopping. If I misinterpreted or you
don't think this is an issue, please let me know.
Regards,
Fred Esch
Watson, IBM, W3C
Accessibility
IBM Watson Watson Release Management and Quality
From: "Chaals McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
To: public-svg-a11y@w3.org, Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Date: 02/11/2016 06:05 AM
Subject: Re: JAWS and SVG ARIA markup
On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:00:51 +0100, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> I used a couple of files that are generated from the testable statements
> in the wiki (zip of files sent on the thread with Chaals).
That message is
http://www.w3.org/mid/201602082104.u18L44xf023344@d01av02.pok.ibm.com
But the attachments weren't recognised by the W3C archive system -
something weird in Fred's email? - so unless you want to extract the
encoded text, ask Fred or me for a copy.
> Using Firefox with JAWS I could hear the markup being read. It appears
> that JAWS identifies, aria-labeledby, aria-label, title and contents
> of a text element. The tests are simple so I don't know what it does if
> there are multiple elements with markup. I expect it picks the first one.
For more complex things, it seems that most browsers just pick the first
title element in the document and present that as the document's title.
While most browsers will present title elements as a tooltip on hovering
with a mouse, it seems VoiceOver never gets anything except the first one
from the browsers I tested on Mac.
> In trying 1 file with NVDA, it read the markup too.
It would be good if you had a look at e.g.
http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/rectrack2-notes.html
which provides more information about a number of browsers, interacting
with a more complex "real-world" SVG - and ideally added your observations
for Windows browsers. At the moment it seems that some of what you are
doing is great, and some of it is just repeating what has already been
done and recorded at
http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html
We should figure out how to track what we already have better, instead of
repeatedly doing important but boring work and losing the results.
> Not a conclusive test, but it suggests that we should recommend marking
> up inline SVG rather than use figure and figcaption.
I don't think recommending inline SVG and figure/figcaption are in
conflict, and I think it would be good if people did both. Unfortunately
there is no neat way to point to a structured description from an inline
SVG, so where that is required the link should be part of the caption.
It is important for users whose browser doesn't handle SVG accessibility
very well - which means more or less everyone in practice, unless the SVG
is *very* carefully constructed - whenever there is more to the
description than is a comfortable caption. Which is probably a high
proportion of cases where SVG is used for e.g. auto-generated charts and
the like.
cheers
Chaals
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
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<html><body><p>Chaals,<br><br>Since you and Leonie have a standing meeting conflict. It would be good if you all could as clearly as possible express your opinions on list. <br><br>Two topics we will discuss next Tuesday are
<ol type="1"><li>Inline SVG in W3C documents
<li>Tests that test elements after the first element with markup (that <i>should</i> get included in the accessibility tree)*</ol><br>Hopefully folks will have actions done and we will have lots of actions and issues to review as well. (Hint, hint)<br>Can you and Leonie - as clearly as possible provide your inputs on these topics in list, before Tuesday?<br><br>* I extracted this issue from your statements in the email about browsers going to the first item with a title stopping. If I misinterpreted or you don't think this is an issue, please let me know.<br><br><br>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="473" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:1__=0ABBF5C5DFDDC4098f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="342" valign="middle"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><br><br><img width="16" height="16" src="cid:2__=0ABBF5C5DFDDC4098f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for "Chaals McCathie Nevile" ---02/11/2016 06:05:41 AM---On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:00:51 +0100, Fred Esch <f"><font color="#424282">"Chaals McCathie Nevile" ---02/11/2016 06:05:41 AM---On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:00:51 +0100, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote: > I used a couple of files t</font><br><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">From: </font><font size="2">"Chaals McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru></font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">To: </font><font size="2">public-svg-a11y@w3.org, Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Date: </font><font size="2">02/11/2016 06:05 AM</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Subject: </font><font size="2">Re: JAWS and SVG ARIA markup</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade style="color:#8091A5; "><br><br><br><tt>On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:00:51 +0100, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:<br><br>> I used a couple of files that are generated from the testable statements <br>> in the wiki (zip of files sent on the thread with Chaals).<br><br>That message is <br></tt><tt><a href="http://www.w3.org/mid/201602082104.u18L44xf023344@d01av02.pok.ibm.com">http://www.w3.org/mid/201602082104.u18L44xf023344@d01av02.pok.ibm.com</a></tt><tt><br><br>But the attachments weren't recognised by the W3C archive system - <br>something weird in Fred's email? - so unless you want to extract the <br>encoded text, ask Fred or me for a copy.<br><br>> Using Firefox with JAWS I could hear the markup being read. It appears<br>> that JAWS identifies, aria-labeledby, aria-label, title and contents<br>> of a text element. The tests are simple so I don't know what it does if<br>> there are multiple elements with markup. I expect it picks the first one.<br><br>For more complex things, it seems that most browsers just pick the first <br>title element in the document and present that as the document's title.<br><br>While most browsers will present title elements as a tooltip on hovering <br>with a mouse, it seems VoiceOver never gets anything except the first one <br> from the browsers I tested on Mac.<br><br>> In trying 1 file with NVDA, it read the markup too.<br><br>It would be good if you had a look at e.g. <br></tt><tt><a href="http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/rectrack2-notes.html">http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/rectrack2-notes.html</a></tt><tt> <br>which provides more information about a number of browsers, interacting <br>with a more complex "real-world" SVG - and ideally added your observations <br>for Windows browsers. At the moment it seems that some of what you are <br>doing is great, and some of it is just repeating what has already been <br>done and recorded at <br></tt><tt><a href="http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html">http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html</a></tt><tt><br><br>We should figure out how to track what we already have better, instead of <br>repeatedly doing important but boring work and losing the results.<br><br>> Not a conclusive test, but it suggests that we should recommend marking<br>> up inline SVG rather than use figure and figcaption.<br><br>I don't think recommending inline SVG and figure/figcaption are in <br>conflict, and I think it would be good if people did both. Unfortunately <br>there is no neat way to point to a structured description from an inline <br>SVG, so where that is required the link should be part of the caption.<br><br>It is important for users whose browser doesn't handle SVG accessibility <br>very well - which means more or less everyone in practice, unless the SVG <br>is *very* carefully constructed - whenever there is more to the <br>description than is a comfortable caption. Which is probably a high <br>proportion of cases where SVG is used for e.g. auto-generated charts and <br>the like.<br><br>cheers<br><br>Chaals<br><br>-- <br>Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex<br> chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at </tt><tt><a href="http://yandex.com">http://yandex.com</a></tt><tt><br><br></tt><br><br><BR>
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Received on Thursday, 11 February 2016 15:32:07 UTC