- From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:39:32 -0500
- To: public-svg-a11y@w3.org
- Message-ID: <OFC102C2E9.41EA9A2D-ON86257EAF.0055CD94-86257EAF.0056046E@us.ibm.com>
web:
http://www.w3.org/2015/08/28-svg-a11y-minutes.html
text:
14:03:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich
14:04:11 [chaals]
Present+ chaals
14:04:27 [AmeliaBR]
present+ AmeliaBR
14:04:45 [fesch]
fesch has joined #svg-a11y
14:06:16 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
14:06:31 [chaals]
Meeting: SVG accessibility TF
14:06:37 [fesch]
scribe: fesch
14:06:43 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
14:06:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: High level Overview Ameila’s Proposed Reduced Model
14:07:15 [AmeliaBR]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Aug/0022.html
14:07:24 [AmeliaBR]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Aug/att-0022/graphics-roles.html
14:07:58 [chaals]
s|
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Aug/0022.html
|-">
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Aug/0022.html|-
>
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Aug/0022.html
Amelia's email outlining an aria model
14:08:22 [chaals]
ABR: Trying to take a high-level approach, and grouped the roles
based on the hierarchy to make it easier to see how they relate.
14:08:25 [fesch]
ab: trying to take a more generalizable approach to roles that is
more focused on data, grouped roles by hierarchy
14:08:32 [chaals]
… broken down in roles that inherit from graphics-doc
14:08:45 [chaals]
… and roles that inherit from graphics-object.
14:09:13 [chaals]
…graphics-doc is a concrete role for diagrams that have structures
but not particularly unique structures. Might still have directional
nav, but that is about it.
14:10:00 [chaals]
There are 3 subsets - maps, network graphs such as org charts where
the connections matter but topology is mutable, and data charts,
which have e.g. axes relevant to the data.
14:10:12 [chaals]
s/There are/… There are/
14:10:39 [chaals]
… have suggested some subtypes, not sure if we want to get that
specific. Is it possible to talk of default behaviours for common
types e.g. bar or pie charts
14:11:04 [chaals]
… e.g. pie charts may not need to declare axes, just auto-generate
from the graphic structure.
14:11:21 [chaals]
… one idea people can look at.
14:11:28 [chaals]
q+ to say it will introduce too much complexity
14:11:46 [chaals]
… or will it introduce too much complexity and we should require
explicit authoring.
14:12:10 [chaals]
… those top-level types would be set, we've already talked about the
collection types where you want to nest.
14:12:18 [chaals]
… other objects have specific charting roles.
14:12:54 [chaals]
… tried to cover most of the things fred had, but grouped them
together more so you use the same role for charts and maps,
regardless of how they are displayed.
14:13:13 [chaals]
… gridlines and tickmarks are conceptually teh same, for example.
14:13:39 [chaals]
… ahve basic graphic-symbol - one for data-related objects, one for
annotation-related objects - all the metadata of a chart.
14:13:58 [chaals]
… I have used this more generally than Fred's term meaning text
annotations.
14:14:17 [chaals]
FE: I used guides for everything like that.
14:14:18 [jasonjgw]
jasonjgw has joined #svg-a11y
14:14:50 [chaals]
ABR: Within that I have data-scale, important for properties that
define dimensions of the data, datatype (number, date, …)
14:14:58 [chaals]
… this will explain the valid ranges.
14:15:27 [chaals]
… within that are seperate subclasses for axes vs legends - legends
can be moved independent of the rest of the blocks without changing
the meaning, but axes can't.
14:15:59 [chaals]
… They both use the same properties, such as circle size being
meaningful, and you show examples in a legend.
14:16:27 [chaals]
… Other type of annotations are the category names and tickmark
labels, which are 2 different roles.
14:16:42 [chaals]
… category is exhaustive list, tickmarks are rough pointers along the
way...
14:17:16 [shepazu_]
shepazu_ has joined #svg-a11y
14:17:19 [chaals]
… For data I have datapoint, datagroup, datalines e.g. for a trend
line, and dataregions.
14:17:31 [chaals]
… have connectors listed as a subclass of data.
14:17:51 [chaals]
… connectors might have data attached to it. Also have a role for
summary objects.
14:18:12 [chaals]
q+ and to ask why not use desc or aria-describedby for summaries
14:18:25 [chaals]
… still need to think about how you explain what type of summary that
is.
14:19:07 [chaals]
… To get into properties. To have machine-readable data we need to
define what type of data that is, so you have a property on scale,
what type of data is in there - number, datetime, enumeration, etc.
14:19:27 [chaals]
… For each of those I have some rules for converting strings to
machine-readable value in the category.
14:19:57 [chaals]
… referencing ECMAscript parsing for most, but not datetime where I
ref HTML5 - which inherits from ISO8601
14:20:31 [chaals]
… Idea is you declare the actual data on objects - data points, or
bars, as a string attribute, and it would be matched up.
14:20:57 [chaals]
… farther down data-values are attached to data objects, data scales
are a list of idrefs to the values.
14:21:29 [chaals]
… e.g. for a bar chart you would have legend - X axis, with value on
category, to minimise markup suggest data-scales attribute would be
inheritable.
14:21:46 [chaals]
… You could define the order of data once for the chart or group.
14:22:02 [chaals]
q+ and to ask why not identify an attribute that represents values
14:22:14 [chaals]
… and single attribute for giving an array of data values all at
once.
14:22:29 [chaals]
… please look at syntax, does it make sense, etc
14:22:38 [chaals]
… (please skip typos…)
14:22:41 [shepazu_]
q+
14:22:55 [fesch]
q+
14:23:11 [chaals]
… not sure how we represent network graphs, have some things using
the area value attributes that exist for widgets describing range of
axis.
14:23:59 [chaals]
… and to associate readable names with short codes, so you need a
numeric code defining order of ordinals, but might want to have
meaningful text values like never, sometimes, often, always. Using
aria value attributes we already have for that.
14:24:12 [chaals]
… mostly trying to get things in writing that I talked about.
14:24:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:24:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
14:24:43 [chaals]
FE: Can you make examples using this
14:24:46 [chaals]
ack me
14:24:46 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say it will introduce too much complexity
14:26:34 [fesch]
chaals: make an example of the hierarchy using your markup, worried
about trying to identify chart types, focus on data
14:26:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:27:12 [fesch]
chaals: wouldn't you use aria-labeledby when you have a label
14:27:40 [fesch]
chaals: can't we use desc or describedby?
14:28:13 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
14:28:16 [fesch]
chaals: when i put examples on the wiki I used a description of a
trend line ...
14:28:23 [chaals]
RS: Do we need a summary property?
14:28:30 [chaals]
ABR: Not sure.
14:28:40 [fesch]
q?
14:28:52 [chaals]
… maybe when we start working out examples we discover they are just
normal text annotations...
14:29:02 [chaals]
ack she
14:29:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shep
14:30:00 [chaals]
DS: Stupid question. Glad to see datatype. Is there something that
gives you the unit? This is an SVG question - don't now how to have
child elements in the title element. Have we fixed that?
14:30:16 [chaals]
ABR: Nothing supported cross-browser. You can put them there but they
won't have any impact.
14:30:19 [chaals]
DS: In the spec?
14:30:26 [chaals]
ABR: Says you are allowed, but not what happens.
14:30:50 [chaals]
DS: Spec should have a way of saying what can go in there - like
tspan allowing you to seperate out different values, add units, …
14:31:15 [chaals]
… datapoints may carry more than one-dimensional info. We need to
allow for that
14:31:37 [chaals]
ACTION: shepazu to ensure title can carry multiple children for e.g.
data arrays
14:31:37 [trackbot]
Error finding 'shepazu'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
14:32:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Action: Doug Define changes to <title> that specifies how to deal
with child content
14:32:08 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Doug'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
14:32:18 [chaals]
i/chaals: make an/scribe: fesch
14:32:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:32:31 [chaals]
ack fe
14:32:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack fesch
14:32:56 [chaals]
FE: Didn't finish reading, but agree with chaals about using visible
text and desc elements when you need a description.
14:33:05 [chaals]
… concern about chart breakdowns, think they need work.
14:33:21 [chaals]
… not sure if we really need a datatype in practice
14:33:30 [chaals]
… not sure chart engines will provide that information.
14:33:43 [chaals]
q+ to get action to ask the chartist.js guy about this in an hour
14:34:05 [chaals]
ABR: Anyone who uses D3 will be familiar with most of these names.
That is how they do it.
14:34:18 [chaals]
ack ri
14:34:36 [chaals]
RS: ARIA TF is supportive of putting a figure role in. Want to tweak
this a bit.
14:34:53 [chaals]
… need that in HTML-AAM spec too.
14:35:09 [chaals]
… need something for basic shapes. Don't see that. Would that be
another subclass of graphics object?
14:35:35 [chaals]
ABR: Don't recall what I did but we agreed not to have specific roles
for different shapes. Decided it wasn't going to be useful
14:35:45 [chaals]
… suggested it would be a symbol.
14:35:55 [chaals]
… otherwise img
14:36:13 [chaals]
RS: If you draw the US, each state has a name. Are the states
symbols?
14:36:33 [chaals]
ABR: Yes you have 50 labelled symbols with descriptions.
14:36:51 [chaals]
… you could use dataregions, too.
14:37:17 [chaals]
RS: So someone labels a circle, with no role, what should it default
to?
14:37:40 [chaals]
ABR: Decided not to have specific primitives, so it would be a
symbol. We could discuss whether it makes sense to have defaults for
properties.
14:38:16 [chaals]
… so if you have stoplight with 3 circles you get 3 symbols.
14:38:32 [fesch]
q?
14:38:34 [chaals]
RS: So we would have CA symbol for an outline of California. OK, will
have to update mapping spec.
14:38:44 [chaals]
ABR: Have this in there as notes...
14:39:06 [chaals]
… a note says if symbol is introduced it would become the default
mapping.
14:39:21 [chaals]
… to get this integrated we need to look at what roles exist in
accessibility APIs
14:39:27 [chaals]
RS: We may have to create new ones.
14:39:33 [chaals]
ack me
14:39:33 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to get action to ask the chartist.js guy about
this in an hour
14:39:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:40:27 [chaals]
ACTION: talk to Gion Kunz (chartist.js maintainer) and ask him about
what roles/properties would make sense …
14:40:27 [trackbot]
Error finding 'talk'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
14:40:40 [chaals]
ACTION: chaals to talk to Gion Kunz (chartist.js maintainer) and ask
him about what roles/properties would make sense …
14:40:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1713 - Talk to gion kunz (chartist.js maintainer) and
ask him about what roles/properties would make sense … [on Charles
McCathie Nevile - due 2015-09-04].
14:41:08 [chaals]
FE: So read this carefully for next week please.
14:41:22 [chaals]
… one issue I found, that I think will apply for any taxonomy...
14:41:29 [chaals]
Topic: Legends
14:41:38 [chaals]
FE: When you have a legend entry it has a symbol and text label.
14:42:15 [chaals]
… trying to make a shadow DOM the AT could use now I ran into a
problem where we say a graphic symbol is atomic - no meaningful
children. A square box or path cannot have a lot of children
14:42:32 [chaals]
… In a legend entry you would read the label, but no way to give the
description of a symbol itself...
14:42:34 [chaals]
q+
14:42:42 [chaals]
q+ to suggest how you do this
14:42:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:43:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack chaals
14:43:00 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to suggest how you do this
14:44:17 [chaals]
CMN: You say the text key is labeledBy the box, whose desc says
"fuchsia with cross-hatching" or whatever…
14:44:42 [chaals]
FE: OK
14:45:23 [shepazu]
q+
14:45:36 [chaals]
… was intrigued by the ARIA data scales and where they would be
defined…
14:45:46 [chaals]
… where would they be defined, what would they look like?
14:46:11 [chaals]
ABR: Got some and some issues. You attach metadata for scales to axis
or legend…
14:46:21 [chaals]
… guess that is where you put units.
14:46:43 [chaals]
… that would be another attribute on the axis.
14:47:02 [chaals]
… e.g. date range, or 0-100000 in USD …
14:47:15 [chaals]
q+
14:47:28 [chaals]
… definitely something to talk about - we want machine-readable data
14:47:42 [chaals]
q+ to say we have values, min, max, in aria, and lots more in XSD
14:47:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shep
14:47:59 [shepazu]
q- later
14:48:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack chaals
14:48:08 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say we have values, min, max, in aria, and lots
more in XSD
14:48:49 [shepazu]
q-
14:49:01 [chaals]
CMN: We can use XML Schema datatypes instead of reinvinting it
14:49:07 [chaals]
s/vin/ven
14:49:22 [chaals]
ABR: These are datatypes for schemata of allowed values
14:49:30 [chaals]
RS: How does that go in accessibility API mapping
14:49:32 [chaals]
q+
14:49:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shep
14:49:37 [fesch]
q+
14:49:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
14:49:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack chaals
14:50:24 [chaals]
CMN: Think in most cases we can use the raw text as descriptions
through the accessibility API
14:50:31 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack fesch
14:50:47 [chaals]
FE: posted examples with what is in the markup, and a page to show
the shadowDOM
14:50:58 [chaals]
… as an exercise in trying to figure out how this works.
14:51:07 [chaals]
[+1 to fesch on worked examples]
14:51:29 [chaals]
… mostly so e.g. Jason/Léonie can see how this might actually work
out.
14:51:45 [AmeliaBR]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility#Experiments_in_markup
14:52:07 [chaals]
s|https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility#Experiments_in_markup|-">
https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility#Experiments_in_markup|->
https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility#Experiments_in_markup
Fred's experiments - see number 2
14:52:51 [chaals]
RS: Would really like to lock down roles we have and focus on
attributes we need. The fewer roles the better. So we have to work
through more examples, to give us a chance of getting this out at the
same time as SVG 2
14:53:26 [chaals]
… can we lock roles in the next month, to get mapping guide fleshed
out, and include native semantics in SVG2 pointing to this…
14:54:03 [chaals]
… Aim is to lock down by the end of the year for CR.
14:54:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:54:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack richardschwerdtfeger
14:54:34 [chaals]
… Want to start new charters for ARIA, need to do a lot for web
components. Want to get SVG on the same level as HTML for
accessibility.
14:55:17 [fesch]
q?
14:55:30 [chaals]
RS: What attributes are we going to need, how do we map them to
accessibility APIs
14:55:43 [chaals]
… would like to get a version of the graphics module out in next 6
weeks
14:55:52 [chaals]
FE: Why not decide what we are going to do with Amelia's stuff...
14:55:53 [chaals]
q+
14:56:05 [shepazu]
q+
14:56:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack chaals
14:56:45 [chaals]
… and I'll edit module to reflect that
14:56:59 [chaals]
CMN: We need to work examples to make rational decisions.
14:57:08 [chaals]
ABR: I'll try doing that by early next week.
14:57:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
14:57:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shep
14:57:31 [chaals]
DS: I'll be away for next 2 weeks.
14:57:49 [chaals]
… Or 3.
14:58:16 [chaals]
… Like the datayping from Amelia's module, isn't just accessibility
issue, but helps make portable data.
14:58:36 [chaals]
… There are more cases than just screenreaders for this.
14:58:44 [fesch]
q?
14:59:09 [chaals]
JW: Will be busy over the next few weeks and cannot commit much
work...
14:59:41 [chaals]
[adjourned]
14:59:46 [chaals]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:50 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/08/28-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:01:01 [chaals]
Present+ Jason, Doug
15:01:42 [chaals]
Regrets+ Léonie
15:01:56 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2015/08/28-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
Rich Schwerdtfeger
Received on Friday, 28 August 2015 15:40:11 UTC