- From: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:10:37 -0400
- To: <public-svg-a11y@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <201508141510.t7EFAp1X012227@d03av04.boulder.ibm.com>
All, I think we forgot to invite zakim and may not have a web page for the
minutes. Here is the captured IRC chat of the minutes.
URL irc://irc.w3.org/svg-a11y Mode no mode Users 10, 0@, 0%, 0
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#svg-a11y
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fesch rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/graphics.html
fesch Topic: Graphics Module
jasonjgw Fred notes the architectural issues raised last week about which roles are needed.
fesch Topic: iconbutton
LJWatson q+
Zakim sees LJWatson on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Rich notes agreement within the ARIA task force that an icon button role wasn't necessary; it doesn't
matter whether it's an icon or not - it's just a button with a label. The preference is to keep it
simple and if there's an image associated with the button,provide a label.
jasonjgw Leonie supports Rich's point. If it happens to have an icon in it then it's still a button with a label.
jasonjgw Amelia notes that it's still in the ARIA graphics module.
jasonjgw Fred offers to remove it from the draft.
jasonjgw RESOLUTION: drop iconbutton role per ARIA task force discussion.
jasonjgw Responding to Amelia, Rich notes there hasn't yet been a discussion within the ARIA task force of the
proposal for a figure role.
jasonjgw Rich notes that applicability of the role to the HTML figure element will arise as an issue.
jasonjgw Amelia notes that the HTML figure element defaults to a role of group.
jasonjgw Rich notes that a graphic figure could be a landmark role, but this would be problematic for more gneral
use in HTML.
jasonjgw Amelia clarifies that it is a special kind of section that should appear in a table of contents. The
point is that someone should be able to find it in a long document.
-->| shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) has joined #svg-a11y
jasonjgw Rich notes that one wants to create a list of figures, so it should be treated as a special type of
landmark.
jasonjgw That is, it belongs in a different bucket from the typical landmarks.
shepazu apologies, joining in a moment
jasonjgw Leonie notes that screen reader move to next landmark operations will traverse every figure - not a
desirable consequence.
jasonjgw Responding to Rich, Leonie indicates that a figure in HTML should always be included in a list of
figures.
jasonjgw Rich proposes to take the issue to the HTML task force.
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
RRSAgent records action 1
trackbot Created ACTION-1703 - Ask the aria task force about the need for a special figure role that would be
brought up in a list of figures. also, discuss whether this would be a suitable default role for html
figure. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-08-21].
shepazu present+ shepazu
AmeliaBR present+ AmeliaBR
LJWatson s/Amelia notes that the HTML figure element defaults to a role of group/Léonie notes that the HTML
figure element defaults to a role of group/
fesch q?
Zakim sees LJWatson on the speaker queue
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
LJWatson q+
Zakim sees LJWatson on the speaker queue
fesch ack LJW
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
shepazu +1
jasonjgw eonie reiterates an earlier point that there are concerns about the focus on navigation without knowing
what information is needed for someone to understand specific types of SVG content.
AmeliaBR s/eonie/Leonie/
AmeliaBR q+
Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Fred notes that what information needs to be conveyed depends on the nature of the graphic and also the
purpose of the author.
jasonjgw Leonie thinks there are common features of different types of data visualizations - axes, data points,
etc., and we need to think about what this comprises.
jasonjgw Fred maintains we should have roles for axes, legends, data points, etc.
AmeliaBR ack me
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
shepazu +1
shepazu q+
Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Amelia agrees with Leonie that we need a clear structure for conveying information and that we should
focus on the information to be conveyed rather than on the myriad visual representations taht may be
used by graphics authors.
shepazu is worried that none of this is being scribed in detail
jasonjgw Amelia maintains we need to be able to convey relationships (containment, next/previous etc.), and we
need to be able to connect values on a scale to a given object - a set of categories, quantitative
ranges, etc.
jasonjgw Thus we need to be able to define a scale (axis, legend or any of several other visual representations).
fesch q?
Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Individual objects need to be assigned a value on the scale.
jasonjgw Amelia thinks this is the generalizable solution. Once we have this, we can create shorthand ways of
representing this for common data visualization types.
jasonjgw Amelia: however, we still need the generic representation for visualization types that aren't covered by
more specific roles.
jasonjgw Doug agrees with Amelia and Leonie.
jasonjgw Doug: position in the hierarchy is important, but also the relationships of data to one antoher - what
kind of data are these and how are they related?
jasonjgw He maintains that the intrinsice relationships among the data (being non-hierarchical) need to be
captured.
fesch q?
Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
fesch ack shep
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Doug isn't sure how this leads to concrete requirements, but these generalities are important.
jasonjgw Amelia clarifies that her reference to relationships is not restricted to those in a DOM tree.
jasonjgw Amelia: data type (categorical, ordinal, numeric) is an important attribute.
jasonjgw She suggests the scale, value and type of value should be captured.
jasonjgw Fred raises the question of how this should be done - whether as a title, description, or summary.
jasonjgw Fred would not like to see reverse engineering done - taking coordinates or color and attempting to
derive data values.
shepazu NOIR: nominal, ordinal, interval, and ratio
shepazu q+
Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Fred notes that in his implementation, the dta values themselves are presented to the user even if they
are denoted visually by, e.g., color.
AmeliaBR q+
Zakim sees shepazu, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Leonie suggests we need to identify the general categores - axes, colors, bars and other constructs.
jasonjgw Fred: the only useful properties of an axis are its labels.
jasonjgw Leonie notes that whether an axis is, e.g., the x-axis, this needs to be captured so that it can be
conveyed non-visually.
jasonjgw Fred notes his implementation experience in which this information is communicated to the user.
jasonjgw Responding to Leonie, Fred suggests that what users would want from an axis is the data range.
jasonjgw Leonie makes the more general point that more such analysis is needed to determine the required roles.
fesch q?
Zakim sees shepazu, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Doug: what is more relevant is that an axis is dependent or independent (i.e., represents an
independent/dependent variable).
jasonjgw Doug: we need to achieve a balance between a "folk" taxonomy that captures the concepts typically used,
and aa technically accurate taxonomy.
jasonjgw For example, there can be any number of axes, so we need a balance between the full range of
possibilities and how people typically characterize charts.
fesch q?
Zakim sees shepazu, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
fesch ack shep
Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Thus, for example "x" and "y" can be independent and dependent, respectively, but this can be reversed
in some cases.
jasonjgw Doug suggests that an axis determines a scale (nminal, ordinal, interval, ratio etc.), and this is waht
should be captured.
jasonjgw The category and type (including data typing/units) should be captured. These are core concepts that
should be represented in ARIA, and we need to decide how to achieve it.
jasonjgw Rich suggests we need to build and start working with it in order to define it more adequately.
jasonjgw Rich notes that we can try some of this early without an API mapping using object attributes.
fesch q+
Zakim sees AmeliaBR, fesch on the speaker queue
fesch ack Ame
Zakim sees fesch on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Amelia: we need to ascertain what information is required and how it is expressed before we enter into
too many specifics.
shepazu +1
shepazu is not seeing this all scribed
jasonjgw Amelia: considering a verbal description, one would wish to know that it's a chart, what kind of chart
it is (if it's one of the common types), how many data points there are and how those points are
arranged, e.g., by date and dollar value.
jasonjgw Amelia: you also need the option of drilling down. Here there is a choice: do you want the scales and
axes, or to move straight to the individual data points.
jasonjgw Amelia: if there are only 5 data points, one might want to go directly to the individual data points and
read them.
fesch q?
Zakim sees fesch on the speaker queue
shepazu (and do you want to have the AT do operations on the data, like calculating statistics, or listing
lowest to highest, or comparing one data point to each other data point or to the aggregated data
points)
jasonjgw Amelia: thus, what one should drill down into depends on the user's purpose and the complexity/quantity
of the data. This is wehre we leave it open for AT to decide how to navigate it, but we need to ensure
that the information is available for both approaches.
jasonjgw This implies a role for scale (subclass roles of axes and legends), and another role for data (with
subclass roles associated wth specific data types).
jasonjgw Associated with each data object we need the scales and the value on each scale, e.g., list of idrefs to
the scale objects, and associated numbers or names.
jasonjgw This is where we need to define the types of data that need to be conveyed.
jasonjgw These types of data then need to be represented as ARIA roles and properites.
shepazu q+
Zakim sees fesch, shepazu on the speaker queue
jasonjgw In summary, Amelia suggests starting with very generic roles that are independent of the visual
representation of a chart, then we can develop subclass roles for, e.g., whether an axis is a
horizontal/vertical axis.
jasonjgw Rich notes we have capabilities for orientation in ARIA.
jasonjgw Fred notes the proposed roles for graphics scale and data items.
shepazu (these orientation/visual aspects are more for talking about the dataviz with others, rather than
understanding it)
jasonjgw Fred notes that NCAM recommend presenting this to the user as title, axes, data and features (in this
order).
fesch ack me
Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Fred: data can be problematic, e.g., describing a line in a line chart. If there are 100,000 points, one
would not supply every member of the ordered pair. One might summarize it, include only major
trends/changes of direction, etc.
jasonjgw Doug requests the NCAM reference, which Fred agrees to supply.
jasonjgw Doug will send more details of his forthcoming presentation on data visualization.
jasonjgw Doug will send the details to Rich.
fesch q+
Zakim sees shepazu, fesch on the speaker queue
fesch ack shep
Zakim sees fesch on the speaker queue
fesch ack me
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
jasonjgw Doug considers this a very productive discussion, but we need to become more concrete.
jasonjgw Amelia offers to write a proposal based on what was described earlier.
jasonjgw Amelia raises the question of how to deal with an excess of data that therefore need to be summarized,
and how to address complex data objects, e.g., a line in a line graph.
jasonjgw Rich also notes that if one is using a small mobile device, it changes one's perspective as to what
information is appropriate.
jasonjgw rrsagent, list participants
RRSAgent I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', jasonjgw. Try /msg RRSAgent help
jasonjgw zakim, make minutes
Zakim I don't understand 'make minutes', jasonjgw
fesch zakim, draft minutes
Zakim I don't understand 'draft minutes', fesch
Regards, Fred
Fred Esch
Accessibility Focal, Watson Solutions
AARB Complex Visualization Working Group
Chair
W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force
IBM Watson
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<html><body><p>All, I think we forgot to invite zakim and may not have a web page for the minutes. Here is the captured IRC chat of the minutes.
<table class="h-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td id="ch-url-l" class="label" width="38" valign="middle"><font size="4">URL</font></td><td id="ch-url" class="" width="166" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/svg-a11y"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">irc://irc.w3.org/svg-a11y</font></u></a><font size="4"> </font></td><td id="ch-modestr-l" class="label" width="38" valign="middle"><font size="4">Mode</font></td><td id="ch-modestr" class="value" width="54" valign="middle"><font size="4">no mode</font></td><td id="ch-usercount-l" class="label" width="37" valign="middle"><font size="4">Users</font></td><td id="ch-usercount" class="value" width="102" valign="middle"><font size="4">10, 0@, 0%, 0+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td id="ch-topicnodes-l" class="label" width="38" valign="middle"><font size="4">Topic</font></td><td class="value" width="398" colspan="5" valign="middle"><font size="4"><none> </font></td></tr></table><br><font size="4">#svg-a11y</font><table class="msg-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-type" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">-->|</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">YOU (fesch) have joined </font><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/%23svg-a11y"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">#svg-a11y</font></u></a></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="94" valign="middle"><font size="4">present+ Jason</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="89" valign="middle"><font size="4">present+ Fred</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="102" valign="middle"><font size="4">present+ Leonie</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="89" valign="middle"><font size="4">present+ Rich</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/graphics.html</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Topic: Graphics Module</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred notes the architectural issues raised last week about which roles are needed.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Topic: iconbutton</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/LJWatson,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">LJWatson</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees LJWatson on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich notes agreement within the ARIA task force that an icon button role wasn't necessary; it doesn't matter whether it's an icon or not - it's just a button with a label. The preference is to keep it simple and if there's an image associated with the button,provide a label.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Leonie supports Rich's point. If it happens to have an icon in it then it's still a button with a label.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia notes that it's still in the ARIA graphics module.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred offers to remove it from the draft.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">RESOLUTION: drop iconbutton role per ARIA task force discussion.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Responding to Amelia, Rich notes there hasn't yet been a discussion within the ARIA task force of the proposal for a figure role.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich notes that applicability of the role to the HTML figure element will arise as an issue.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia notes that the HTML figure element defaults to a role of group.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich notes that a graphic figure could be a landmark role, but this would be problematic for more gneral use in HTML.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia clarifies that it is a special kind of section that should appear in a table of contents. The point is that someone should be able to find it in a long document.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-type" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">-->|</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) has joined </font><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/%23svg-a11y"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">#svg-a11y</font></u></a></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich notes that one wants to create a list of figures, so it should be treated as a special type of landmark.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">That is, it belongs in a different bucket from the typical landmarks.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">apologies, joining in a moment</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Leonie notes that screen reader move to next landmark operations will traverse every figure - not a desirable consequence.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Responding to Rich, Leonie indicates that a figure in HTML should always be included in a list of figures.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich proposes to take the issue to the HTML task force.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="760" valign="middle"><font size="4">Action: Rich Ask the ARIA task force about the need for a special Figure role that would be brought up in a list of figures. Also, discuss whether this would be a suitable default role for HTML figure.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/trackbot,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">trackbot</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">is creating a new ACTION.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/RRSAgent,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">RRSAgent</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">records action 1</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/trackbot,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">trackbot</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Created ACTION-1703 - Ask the aria task force about the need for a special figure role that would be brought up in a list of figures. also, discuss whether this would be a suitable default role for html figure. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-08-21].</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">present+ shepazu</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/AmeliaBR,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">AmeliaBR</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">present+ AmeliaBR</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/LJWatson,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">LJWatson</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">s/Amelia notes that the HTML figure element defaults to a role of group/Léonie notes that the HTML figure element defaults to a role of group/</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees LJWatson on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="760" valign="middle"><font size="4">Jason: One proposal from last weeks discussion was to keep the graphics object and graphics grouping type roles. We would want to define special navigation features that would not be defined by ARIA roles.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-nested-td" width="905" colspan="3" valign="middle"><font size="1"><br></font><table class="msg-nested-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="136" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/richardschwerdtfeger,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">richardschwerdtfeger</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="89" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack LJWatson</font></td></tr></table></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees no one on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/LJWatson,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">LJWatson</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees LJWatson on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack LJW</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees no one on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">+1</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">eonie reiterates an earlier point that there are concerns about the focus on navigation without knowing what information is needed for someone to understand specific types of SVG content.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/AmeliaBR,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">AmeliaBR</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">s/eonie/Leonie/</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/AmeliaBR,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">AmeliaBR</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred notes that what information needs to be conveyed depends on the nature of the graphic and also the purpose of the author.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Leonie thinks there are common features of different types of data visualizations - axes, data points, etc., and we need to think about what this comprises.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred maintains we should have roles for axes, legends, data points, etc.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/AmeliaBR,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">AmeliaBR</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack me</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees no one on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">+1</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia agrees with Leonie that we need a clear structure for conveying information and that we should focus on the information to be conveyed rather than on the myriad visual representations taht may be used by graphics authors.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">is worried that none of this is being scribed in detail</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia maintains we need to be able to convey relationships (containment, next/previous etc.), and we need to be able to connect values on a scale to a given object - a set of categories, quantitative ranges, etc.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Thus we need to be able to define a scale (axis, legend or any of several other visual representations).</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Individual objects need to be assigned a value on the scale.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia thinks this is the generalizable solution. Once we have this, we can create shorthand ways of representing this for common data visualization types.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: however, we still need the generic representation for visualization types that aren't covered by more specific roles.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug agrees with Amelia and Leonie.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug: position in the hierarchy is important, but also the relationships of data to one antoher - what kind of data are these and how are they related?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">He maintains that the intrinsice relationships among the data (being non-hierarchical) need to be captured.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack shep</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees no one on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug isn't sure how this leads to concrete requirements, but these generalities are important.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia clarifies that her reference to relationships is not restricted to those in a DOM tree.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: data type (categorical, ordinal, numeric) is an important attribute.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">She suggests the scale, value and type of value should be captured.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred raises the question of how this should be done - whether as a title, description, or summary.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred would not like to see reverse engineering done - taking coordinates or color and attempting to derive data values.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">NOIR: nominal, ordinal, interval, and ratio</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred notes that in his implementation, the dta values themselves are presented to the user even if they are denoted visually by, e.g., color.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/AmeliaBR,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">AmeliaBR</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Leonie suggests we need to identify the general categores - axes, colors, bars and other constructs.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred: the only useful properties of an axis are its labels.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Leonie notes that whether an axis is, e.g., the x-axis, this needs to be captured so that it can be conveyed non-visually.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred notes his implementation experience in which this information is communicated to the user.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Responding to Leonie, Fred suggests that what users would want from an axis is the data range.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Leonie makes the more general point that more such analysis is needed to determine the required roles.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug: what is more relevant is that an axis is dependent or independent (i.e., represents an independent/dependent variable).</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug: we need to achieve a balance between a "folk" taxonomy that captures the concepts typically used, and aa technically accurate taxonomy.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">For example, there can be any number of axes, so we need a balance between the full range of possibilities and how people typically characterize charts.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack shep</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Thus, for example "x" and "y" can be independent and dependent, respectively, but this can be reversed in some cases.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug suggests that an axis determines a scale (nminal, ordinal, interval, ratio etc.), and this is waht should be captured.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">The category and type (including data typing/units) should be captured. These are core concepts that should be represented in ARIA, and we need to decide how to achieve it.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich suggests we need to build and start working with it in order to define it more adequately.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich notes that we can try some of this early without an API mapping using object attributes.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees AmeliaBR, fesch on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack Ame</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees fesch on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: we need to ascertain what information is required and how it is expressed before we enter into too many specifics.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">+1</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">is not seeing this all scribed</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: considering a verbal description, one would wish to know that it's a chart, what kind of chart it is (if it's one of the common types), how many data points there are and how those points are arranged, e.g., by date and dollar value.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: you also need the option of drilling down. Here there is a choice: do you want the scales and axes, or to move straight to the individual data points.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: if there are only 5 data points, one might want to go directly to the individual data points and read them.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q?</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees fesch on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">(and do you want to have the AT do operations on the data, like calculating statistics, or listing lowest to highest, or comparing one data point to each other data point or to the aggregated data points)</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia: thus, what one should drill down into depends on the user's purpose and the complexity/quantity of the data. This is wehre we leave it open for AT to decide how to navigate it, but we need to ensure that the information is available for both approaches.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">This implies a role for scale (subclass roles of axes and legends), and another role for data (with subclass roles associated wth specific data types).</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Associated with each data object we need the scales and the value on each scale, e.g., list of idrefs to the scale objects, and associated numbers or names.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">This is where we need to define the types of data that need to be conveyed.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">These types of data then need to be represented as ARIA roles and properites.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees fesch, shepazu on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">In summary, Amelia suggests starting with very generic roles that are independent of the visual representation of a chart, then we can develop subclass roles for, e.g., whether an axis is a horizontal/vertical axis.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich notes we have capabilities for orientation in ARIA.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred notes the proposed roles for graphics scale and data items.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/shepazu,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">shepazu</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">(these orientation/visual aspects are more for talking about the dataviz with others, rather than understanding it)</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred notes that NCAM recommend presenting this to the user as title, axes, data and features (in this order).</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack me</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Fred: data can be problematic, e.g., describing a line in a line chart. If there are 100,000 points, one would not supply every member of the ordered pair. One might summarize it, include only major trends/changes of direction, etc.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug requests the NCAM reference, which Fred agrees to supply.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug will send more details of his forthcoming presentation on data visualization.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug will send the details to Rich.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">q+</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees shepazu, fesch on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack shep</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees fesch on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">ack me</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">sees no one on the speaker queue</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Doug considers this a very productive discussion, but we need to become more concrete.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia offers to write a proposal based on what was described earlier.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Amelia raises the question of how to deal with an excess of data that therefore need to be summarized, and how to address complex data objects, e.g., a line in a line graph.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">Rich also notes that if one is using a small mobile device, it changes one's perspective as to what information is appropriate.</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">rrsagent, list participants</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/RRSAgent,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">RRSAgent</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', jasonjgw. Try /msg RRSAgent help</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/jasonjgw,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">jasonjgw</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">zakim, make minutes</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">I don't understand 'make minutes', jasonjgw</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><font size="4">fesch</font></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">zakim, draft minutes</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td class="msg-timestamp" width="4" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" border="0" alt=""></td><td class="msg-user" width="68" valign="middle"><a href="irc://irc.w3.org/Zakim,isnick"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF">Zakim</font></u></a></td><td class="msg-data" width="831" valign="middle"><font size="4">I don't understand 'draft minutes', fesch</font></td></tr></table><br><br><br>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="341" valign="bottom"><div align="center"><font size="4">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Accessibility Focal, Watson Solutions<br>AARB Complex Visualization Working Group Chair<br>W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force <br></font><img src="cid:4__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson"></div></td><td width="100" valign="bottom"><img src="cid:5__=8FBBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FB@" width="115" height="115" alt="Fred" align="bottom"></td></tr></table><br><BR>
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--0__BBF432DFC0B39F8f9e8a93df938690918c8FBBF432DFC0B39F--
Received on Friday, 14 August 2015 15:11:28 UTC