- From: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>
- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:12:52 -0700
- To: Ben <ben@thatmustbe.me>
- Cc: Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org>, Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org>, "public-socialweb@w3.org" <public-socialweb@w3.org>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Ben <ben@thatmustbe.me> wrote: > I agree Harry, > > JSON sounds great, AS2 is not just JSON, its a bunch of stuff piled on there. > Its messy, Its overly complex, and it forgot the KISS principle. > Few quick questions: 1. What parts are messy? 2. What parts are overly complex? 3. What parts would you prefer to see removed? - James > Would any implementers from other groups be interested in trying something > based on some extremely simple set of JSON? Lets see how far we can get > without getting stuck in arguments of vocabularies and such. > For example lets just test getting some very very basic functionality such as > likes, and maybe comments working across several systems. > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org> wrote: >> On 10/19/2015 04:11 PM, Christopher Allan Webber wrote: >>> Ben Werdmüller writes: >>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> I want to revisit my statement here. I apologize for not being in the >>>> calls, and I think it's important that my intention isn't mischaracterized. >>>> >>>> My intention was: "agree on something, and we will implement it". It was >>>> not: "we love Activity Streams 2.0". >>>> >>>> I wrote a piece the other day about web standards that adds further detail >>>> to my position ( >>>> http://stream.withknown.com/2015/a-short-note-about-web-standards-from-your-friends-at). >>>> It's important, in my opinion, that any standard is: >>>> >>>> * Open >>>> * Easy to implement >>>> * Agnostic to ideology >>>> >>>> This was true of HTML, and it's true (perhaps to a lesser extent) of RSS. >>>> The cool thing about the web is that you can build something in an hour, >>>> and I think it was key to its success. It started simple and iterated >>>> through real-world use, which is how all successful technologies on the web >>>> are built. Even the img tag, as we all know, was added later. >>>> Standardization through organic use is powerful. >>>> >>>> Known has the indieweb technologies built in, alongside RSS, because >>>> they're simple, which is why I believe in them (we're about to deploy >>>> across several university campuses, which will multiply the total userbase >>>> by a factor of at least 6). They in themselves are iterations on Atom >>>> primitives. To be clear, I'm not adverse to adding other technologies to >>>> the mix at all - what I think is important is that the users of a >>>> decentralized social web are a core part of determining its direction, >>>> rather than it being dictated in a top-down fashion. >>>> >>>> So, to revisit "agree on something, and we will implement it", for what >>>> it's worth, I'd prefer it was a lightweight starting point that the web can >>>> iterate on. >>>> >>>> Ben >>> Ben, I agree with this and would like to see it happen. >>> >>> Getting any sort of agreement seems to be the hard part, now... >> Why can't we get agreement on JSON? >> >> Again, without a common transport protocol (HTTP) and a common >> messaging format (JSON), we will just be developing decentralized silos, >> i.e. IndieWeb sites not talking to RDF-using sites not talking to >> ActivityPump/Media Goblin. Sigh. >> >> To add in a dose of realism, JSON is what modern programming languages >> (Go, Ruby, etc.) use by default and 99% of developers. The JSON-using >> development community is *orders of magnitude* larger than both the >> RDF/Linked Data community and the microformat community. I think both >> RDF and microformats have done tremendous activity in this space and >> should be recognized and real work should be made to guarantee interop >> with microformats and RDF. However, the burden of development 'shims' >> (relatively easy in both cases due to mf2 and JSON-LD) should be on >> those communities, who should recognize that while they are innovative, >> a common interop language will end up being JSON. "Shims" that MAY >> consume RDF and Microformats probably should be specified by the API, >> i.e. what to do when your API encounters non-JSON, but the default >> assumption should be JSON. >> >> In my personal opinion, ActivityStreams2 simply should help be the JSON >> 'successor' syntax to RSS and Atom. The problem with AS1 and even >> *moreso* with AS2 is lack of implementers and interest. However, it >> seems we have a number of open source projects and a small amount of >> vendors willing to commit to it. On the other hand, it probably needs >> more implementation feedback before going to CR (i.e. a 'Last Call' >> phase). In general, making it more minimal is probably a good thing. >> Indeed, if one made something simpler than AS2 and it was JSON-based, it >> would be within charter. >> >> Second, it's in the charter that I wrote, i.e. "A transfer syntax for >> social data such as activities (such as status updates) should include >> at least the ability to describe the data using URIs in an extensible >> manner, time-stamping, and should include a serialization compatible >> with Javascript (JSON) and possibly JSON-LD. Formats based on XML or >> other data serializations are out-of-scope. " >> >> If you don't agree with the charter, the wonderful thing about standards >> bodies is there's so many to choose from: One can always go somewhere >> else. Or we can simply ask W3C to write a new charter, in which case we >> should do so sooner rather than later if there *really* isn't any >> support for JSON. I'd suggest that folks who want to block progress on >> going forward with JSON sit back and think why they are in the Working >> Group: Remember that simply adding 'W3C' to a spec does not necessarily >> increase adoption. Examples such as SOAP abound. The *core* problem with >> AS2 is that it did not have much developer interest *before* launching >> the Working Group (ideally, we should see lots of implementation before >> standardizing), and the theory was that the WG would help increase >> developer implementations. This finally appears to be happening. >> >> There's larger problems than AS2 we have to face, i.e. an API (likely >> simple is good) and federation (hard), so I suspect we should stop >> bike-shedding on this one. I'd like to invite all folks who objected to >> AS2 to explain how they will gain interop without a common messaging >> format (or why their format clearly has more take-up than JSON). If a >> sufficient case isn't made, we should continue forward with JSON or end >> the Working Group via closing/re-chartering. So let's stop bike-shedding >> and get to the hard work! >> >> cheers, >> harry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
Received on Monday, 19 October 2015 21:13:40 UTC