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[Minutes] 2016-01-20

From: Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:33:11 +0000
To: SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <56A5F9E7.7060903@w3.org>
A little later than normal, the minutes of last week's minutes are at 
https://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes with a snapshot below.


           Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference

20 Jan 2016

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-irc

Attendees

    Present
           kerry, robin, frans, Linda, ClemensPortele, aharth,
           ahaller2, joshlieberman, ChrisLittle, jtandy, SimonCox,
           MattPerry, AndreaPerego, ClausStadler

    Regrets
           Danh, Phil, Ed, Bart, Bill, Scott, Alejandro, Payam

    Chair
           kerry

    Scribe
           frans

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]patent call
          2. [5]extra item: workshop
          3. [6]f2f
          4. [7]F2F meeting Amersfoort
          5. [8]SSN Modularisation: what does a good ontology
             modularisation look like? see
             http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ssn-cg/2012
             Jun/0000.html
          6. [9]SSN Tools: what tools for collaborative ontology
             editing? http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/SSN_Tasks
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      * [11]Summary of Resolutions
      __________________________________________________________

    <kerry> rragent, make logs public

    <kerry> scribe: frans

    <kerry> scribenick:frans

    <kerry> scribenick: frans

    <Linda> Thanks Kerry!

    <joshlieberman> webex password?

    <ChrisLittle> v4qtEh56

    <scribe> chair:kerry

    <scribe> chair: Kerry

    <scribe> chair: kerry

    <joshlieberman> Thanks ChrisLittle

    <KJanowicz> Hi Kerry, can I very briefly talk 2 min about the
    workshop proposal?

    PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes:
    [12]https://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-sdw-minutes

      [12] https://www.w3.org/2016/01/13-sdw-minutes

    <jtandy> +1

    <ClemensPortele> +1

    +1

    <kerry> +1

    <KJanowicz> +1

    <ahaller2> I was attending last week, probably forgot present

    <ChrisLittle> +1 minutes

    <Linda> +1

    <MattPerry> +1

    <ahaller2> no problem

    <ahaller2> +1

    RESOLUTION: accept last weekÅ› minutes

patent call

    <kerry> patent call:
    [13]https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call

      [13] https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call

    kerry: no comments on patent call

extra item: workshop

    KJanowicz: SSN workshop will be held

    KJanowicz organizes together with Josh

    kerry: where and when?

    <ahaller2> \ Can you post the link?

    <KJanowicz> [14]http://giscience.geog.mcgill.ca/

      [14] http://giscience.geog.mcgill.ca/

    KJanowicz: Montreal 27 september - 30 september
    ... please send in ideas for the workshop

f2f

F2F meeting Amersfoort

    kerry: I made a draft agenda
    ... copying the agenda in the IRC, please have a look

    <kerry> [15]http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Agenda_F2F3

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Agenda_F2F3

    kerry: people who are not going: please look at the times
    ... enough presence of SSN people is questioned

    <SimonCox> I'll be a bit hit and miss on the wire

    comments can be added to the wiki

    <joshlieberman> Later in the day is certainly better for those
    in the US east.

    ChrisLittle: need more time

    <KJanowicz> can somebody post the wiki link to the list of
    participants for the F2F?

    <AndreaPerego> Participants:
    [16]https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Attending_F2F3

      [16] https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Attending_F2F3

    <ahaller2> sounds good

    jtandy: BP editors have some topics for the agenda
    ... they will ask for real world examples

    kerry: chris, please make a suggestion for a time slot for time
    ... frans, please place request for UCR time on the wiki

    <kerry> ack

    Linda: start and end times?

    kerry: I think it depends on the venue

    Linda: I have the key so anything is possible

    kerry: nine to six?
    ... and a lunch break

    <ChrisLittle> +1 to 9-6 and lunch and coffees

    <AndreaPerego> +1 from me

    <ChrisLittle> * any hagelslaght?

    ClausStadler: not certain of attendence yet

    kerry: please put attendence on the wiki

SSN Modularisation: what does a good ontology modularisation look
like? see
[17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ssn-cg/2012Jun/0000.ht
ml

      [17] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ssn-cg/2012Jun/0000.html

    kerry: objection to SSN was complexity
    ... it is common to just use a bit of the vocabulary
    ... do people have ideas on good modularization?

    <KJanowicz> +1

    kerry: modularisation may be a topic in coverage and time as
    well

    ahaller: horizontal and vertical modularization

    <SimonCox> Good modularization: limit external dependencies

    KJanowicz: event model (which?) is a good example

    kerry: please post a link of the example

    <KJanowicz> [18]http://semanticweb.cs.vu.nl/2009/11/sem/

      [18] http://semanticweb.cs.vu.nl/2009/11/sem/

    <KJanowicz> see, for instance,
    [19]http://semanticweb.cs.vu.nl/2009/11/img/Fig1.jpg

      [19] http://semanticweb.cs.vu.nl/2009/11/img/Fig1.jpg

    <KJanowicz> +1

    ahaller2: generally agrees, but there should not be too many
    modules

    <ahaller2> ... and put all upper level relations in one module

    kerry: what is modularisation? Is it multiple files?

    aharth: different namespaces are probably needed

    <ahaller2> +1

    <KJanowicz> This is how we addressed the problem in Geolink:
    [20]http://schema.geolink.org/

      [20] http://schema.geolink.org/

    joshlieberman: imports could be a problem

    <KJanowicz> +1

    kerry: the point is being able to use just a bit, without
    bother from other stuff

    <KJanowicz> it is more than that

    <SimonCox> Namespace issue has nasty interaction with
    linked-data assumptions

    joshlieberman: perhaps it is just a question of documentation
    and visualization

    <KJanowicz> +1

    ahaller2: memory consumption on lightweight devices is a factor

    <SimonCox> disagree with @ahaller regarding motivation for
    modularization.

    <KJanowicz> also logical implications

    (I am sorry, I did not get the message)

    <SimonCox> agree with KJanowicz - need to be able to remove
    unintended/unfortunate entailments

    <KJanowicz> modularization also important to avoid strong
    'ontological commitments'

    kerry: no clear solution yet, but worthwhile to hear different
    views

    ClausStadler: what about the data cube vocab?

    <SimonCox> Yes - overlap with several other ontologies. OBOE,
    BCO

    kerry: SSN predates data cube vocabulary

    <SimonCox> BCO is aligned with BFO, so takes fundamental
    continuant/occurrent split as a starting point

    kerry: not sure whether data cube affects modularization

SSN Tools: what tools for collaborative ontology editing?
[21]http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/SSN_Tasks

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/SSN_Tasks

    <KJanowicz> also: avoid problems like whether we allow for
    virtual sensors or now

    ahaller2: GitHub can be used, but webprotege has limitations

    <KJanowicz> Why not use DL functional syntax first?

    ahaller2: suggestions for online tools?

    <ClausStadler> just one note: with git it would be possible to
    add e.g. a pre-commit hook which prevents being able to commit
    a non-validating file, but not sure if existing validators
    would fit your needs

    jtandy: phil has looked around how others do it
    ... has one person been responsible. or were there more
    editors?

    <KJanowicz> Lets not be driven by tools too early in the
    process

    KJanowicz: start simple, like pen and paper

    <KJanowicz> [22]https://www.yworks.com/products/yed

      [22] https://www.yworks.com/products/yed

    Linda: in a Dutch project no online solution was found
    ... Topbraid and subversion was used in the end

    <SimonCox> For collaborative editing/merging need effective
    diff mechanism!

    <KJanowicz> Agreed but this is what you would have yed and
    other concept maps for

    ahaller2: warns against shutting out people

    <KJanowicz> the same will happen in protege, the axioms require
    an understanding of OWL

    <SimonCox> Its not Turtle that is the issue, it is RDF!

    ahaller: use webprotege only for classes and properties

    <joshlieberman> It seems possible to work on both a graph level
    and an axiomatic level. The graph level is more accessible.

    <KJanowicz> agree with Josh

    joshlieberman: just the graph view could make the ontology more
    accesible

    <SimonCox> How to ensure graph/axiom views are correctly
    synced?

    <KJanowicz> We could use VOWL for that

    kerry: axioms are probably the most of the work

    <KJanowicz> [23]http://vowl.visualdataweb.org/protegevowl.html

      [23] http://vowl.visualdataweb.org/protegevowl.html

    kerry: what is VOWL?

    <joshlieberman> There is time-zone specific humor, apparently.

    <ahaller2> the problem is with the Protege desktop version is
    that it will always scramble the source code

    <SimonCox> +1 ahaller2

    aharth: no strong opinion, no magic solution either

    <SimonCox> Would be good if Protege joined the 21st century and
    used turtle instead of rdf/xml

    kerry: afraid that this topic is not going to be resolved
    either

    <Linda> Why not Topbraid then?

    <KJanowicz> This is merely a serialization

    <SimonCox> Canonical serialization ?

    <ahaller2> does any23 produce a reliable serialisation?

    <kerry> ACTION: ahaller2 to look at tools for ontology editing
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html#action01]

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-133 - to look at tools for ontology
    editing [on Armin Haller - due 2016-01-27].

    <KJanowicz> IMHO our main challenge will be to develop a good
    formalization. Tools and serializations are secondary, lets
    make sure they do not hold us back.

    Linda: topbraid has a free version

    SimonCox: there is a limit on visualisation (diagrams)
    ... Topbraid does better serialization

    <KJanowicz> Do they have a linux version?

    <ClausStadler> i don't know about any23, but for comparing
    changes in RDF files I was using raptor to convert arbitrary
    rdf syntaxes ([25]http://librdf.org/raptor/ | sudo apt-get
    install raptor2-utils) to ntriples followed by a sort - not
    sure what happens with blank nodes though (i try to avoid them,
    but with owl axioms it would be a pain)

      [25] http://librdf.org/raptor/

    <joshlieberman> [26]http://lodlaundromat.org ?

      [26] http://lodlaundromat.org/

    <ClausStadler> (what andreas just says ;) )

    <joshlieberman> Also possible to use one of the "alignment"
    tools as the diff generator.

    aharth: if we use canonical RDF we can use different tools

    <SimonCox> N-Triples is always most reliable route to canonical
    form, but least inspectable visually!

    kerry: that would be an ideal solution

    <KJanowicz> Aidan's paper
    [27]http://www.www2015.it/documents/proceedings/proceedings/p43
    0.pdf

      [27] http://www.www2015.it/documents/proceedings/proceedings/p430.pdf

    sorry josh, I did not get that

    <aharth> a quick way would be just sort an N-Triples file, if
    there are blank nodes, use the algorithm from: Aidan Hogan,
    "Skolemising Blank Nodes while Preserving Isomorphism", WWW
    conference 2015

    kerry: josh, please note the idea in the wiki

    Linda: the LOD Laundromat could be used to clean up RDF

    <joshlieberman> Alignment tool example: LogMap --
    [28]http://csu6325.cs.ox.ac.uk/

      [28] http://csu6325.cs.ox.ac.uk/

    kerry: time is up, next topic will be postponed
    ... reminder: please let us know about involvement in F2F
    meeting

    <ChrisLittle> bye and thanks Kerry

    <KJanowicz> bye bye

    <AndreaPerego> Thanks, and bye

    <joshlieberman> bye and thanks

    <ClemensPortele> bye!

    <MattPerry> \quit

    <kerry> bye!

    bye

    <kerry> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: ahaller2 to look at tools for ontology editing
    [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html#action01]

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2016/01/20-sdw-minutes.html#action01

Summary of Resolutions

     1. [30]accept last weekÅ› minutes

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________
Received on Monday, 25 January 2016 10:33:46 UTC

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