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Re: Public Interest legal aid markup

From: Guha <guha@google.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:25:11 -0700
Message-ID: <CAPAGhv-Mr_D7Uduq_Fe0RteWZBVU6HHo1E_fazWR2NsyMpOeHw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
Cc: Vicki Tardif <vtardif@google.com>, Stephen Hamilton <stephen@mettlepress.com.au>, "schema.org Mailing List" <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
Yes, lets keep it moving ... there is going to be a lot of need for this
kind of stuff
with the new relief programs

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:20 AM Richard Wallis <
richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:

> Issue #246 <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/246> seemed to
> get hung up on per country legal definitions and trying to identify
> specific subtypes of Organization..
>
> May be still open to some interpretation, but this proposal seems to be
> more simple by adding a *profitStatus *property for both Organization and
> Service.
>
> ~Richard
>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 15:09, Vicki Tardif <vtardif@google.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we got hung up on non-profit status a few years ago in issue #246
>> <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/246>.
>>
>> - Vicki
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 2:01 AM Stephen Hamilton <
>> stephen@mettlepress.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Richard, this is an important distinction.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Stephen Hamilton
>>>
>>> Sent from mobile device
>>>
>>> On 24 Mar 2020, at 11:16 pm, Richard Wallis <
>>> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> A not for profit status is potentially useful property to convey.
>>>
>>> However I believe there are two facets to this.   There are indeed *not
>>> for profit* organisations, there are also *not for profit *services
>>> that are not necessarily only offered by such organisations.
>>>
>>> Some for profit organisations offer *charitable* / *pro bono* / *not
>>> for profit* services alongside their commercial operations.   I have
>>> even worked for a not for profit organisation that offered for profit
>>> services to help support its other operations..
>>>
>>> To support such distinctions it would be appropriate to add the
>>> *profitStatus* property to both the Organization
>>> <https://schema.org/Organization> and Service
>>> <https://schema.org/Service> types.
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Wallis
>>> Founder, Data Liberate
>>> http://dataliberate.com
>>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>>> Twitter: @rjw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:47, Alan LaFrance <stidotorg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> Good points.
>>>>
>>>> Can you think of some test cases that would challenge either of the
>>>> methods? Perhaps we can work the problem backwards and arrive at a more
>>>> robust solution.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:52 PM Andrew Crimer <andrew.crimer@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (forgot to cc the list)
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>> From: Andrew Crimer <andrew.crimer@gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 2:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Public Interest legal aid markup
>>>>> To: Margaret Hagan <mdhagan@stanford.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A note on the complexity here: there are many types of corporation and
>>>>> they vary substantially by jurisdiction. "profitStatus" probably can't
>>>>> effectively be made binary. Incentives, i.e. "will never charge you money,"
>>>>> are probably even more complicated. In the United States, IRC section 501c
>>>>> has 29 subsections <https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/501>,
>>>>> each with various additional cases attached. I'm not advocating for
>>>>> encoding the US tax code into schema, but I do think it bears mentioning
>>>>> that "for profit" and "not for profit" are both subject to change over time
>>>>> and extremely broad generalizations.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 2:44 PM Margaret Hagan <mdhagan@stanford.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the profitStatus property, because there are many non-profit
>>>>>> organizations that do not primarily identify as an ‘NGO’ — but still want
>>>>>> to communicate that they are non-commercial, public-interest, and will
>>>>>> never charge you money/sell your data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ICNPO can be fine, though it’s definitely higher burden to do the
>>>>>> classification than the profitStatus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks so much for your thoughts! Best, Margaret
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On March 24, 2020 at 11:37:03 AM, Alan LaFrance (stidotorg@gmail.com)
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Margaret,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this exposes a gap in the existing schema, as you mentioned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d like to advocate for adding an optional property called
>>>>>> profitStatus to Organization that notates the status of an org as “for
>>>>>> profit” or “non profit.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alternatively, we could use ICNPO classifications as guidance for a
>>>>>> more granular method. (See link below)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/catalogue/13-015-X
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Alan LaFrance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:06 PM Margaret Hagan <mdhagan@stanford.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m working with various legal aid groups and other ‘public
>>>>>>> interest/non-profit’ legal groups on marking up their online resources.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am running into a few limitations/areas for help.` If you have any
>>>>>>> thoughts, edits, reactions — I’d really appreciate it!  Best, Margaret
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *1) Organization Type:* Should we be tagging a non-profit legal
>>>>>>> information/services as an ‘NGO’ or as a ‘Legal Service’? The ideal is that
>>>>>>> we are communicating to the public that the sites are:
>>>>>>> - public interest and free
>>>>>>> - offering info + services related to legal problems
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ideally there would be another category like ‘Non-profit Legal
>>>>>>> Service’ or ‘Legal Aid’
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *2) Issue Expertise:* What’s the best way to label the areas of law
>>>>>>> that a legal aid or free legal info site might help a person with? For
>>>>>>> example, to let people know they have help with domestic violence; child
>>>>>>> custody; landlord-tenant problems; migrant worker problems, etc?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now, we are using ‘knowsAbout’ and then linking to a URL with
>>>>>>> a taxonomy entry for that legal problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone used any other strategy for this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *3) Jurisdiction Coverage:* Ideally we could label the organization
>>>>>>> and services very precisely with what cities, counties, or states their
>>>>>>> info/services apply to. For example, some of the housing law pages are only
>>>>>>> for certain cities, while some family/child custody are only for people in
>>>>>>> a certain state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are currently using Administrative Area and listing these
>>>>>>> different city/county/state units as text entries — but ideally we could be
>>>>>>> more precise than text. Has anyone used other strategies for communicating
>>>>>>> the jurisdictions that particular rules or services apply to?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For more detail, here are some of the sample drafts of markup that
>>>>>>> our groups are working on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@context": "http://www.schema.org",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@type": "LegalService",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "name": "Idaho Legal Aid Services",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "url": "https://www.idaholegalaid.org/",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "description": "Idaho Legal Aid Services is a nonprofit statewide
>>>>>>> law firm dedicated to providing equal access to justice for low income
>>>>>>> people through quality advocacy and education.",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "logo": "
>>>>>>> https://www.idaholegalaid.org/sites/idaholegalaid.org/files/ilas-logo-100.png
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "address": {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "@type": "PostalAddress",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "streetAddress": "1447 S. Tyrell Lane
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1447+S.+Tyrell+Lane?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "addressLocality": "Boise",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "addressRegion": "ID",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "postalCode": 83706
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "areaServed": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "@type": "AdministrativeArea",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "name": "Idaho"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "telephone": "208-746-7541 <(208)%20746-7541>",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "openingHours": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Mo 08:30-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Tu 08:30-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "We 08:30-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Th 08:30-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Fr 08:30-17:00"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "isAccessibleForFree": true,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "knowsAbout": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/HO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/FA-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/IM-13-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/BE-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/MO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/NA-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “https://taxonomy.legal/term/BE-07-00-00-00”,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “https://taxonomy.legal/term/FA-15-00-00-00”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@context": "http://www.schema.org",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@type": "LegalService",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "name": "Legal Services of North Florida",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "url": "https://www.lsnf.org/",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "description": "LSNF is a not-for-profit legal services
>>>>>>> organization serving only low-income individuals and families in sixteen
>>>>>>> counties across Florida’s central and western panhandle. LSNF’s priority
>>>>>>> areas are cases involving Family Law, Housing, Public Benefits, Employment,
>>>>>>> Education, and Health Care issues. It does not help with traffic tickets,
>>>>>>> car injuries, or defending criminal actions.",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "logo": "
>>>>>>> https://www.lsnf.org/wp-content/themes/LSNFtheme/assets/images/Logo.png
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "alternateName": "LSNF",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "telephone": "(850) 385-9007",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "address": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "@type": "PostalAddress",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "streetAddress": "2119 Delta Boulevard
>>>>>>> <https://www..google.com/maps/search/2119+Delta+Boulevard?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "addressLocality": "Tallahassee",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "addressRegion": "FL",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "postalCode": “32303”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "areaServed": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "@type": "AdministrativeArea",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "name": "[“Bay County, FL”, “Calhoun County, FL”, “Escambia
>>>>>>> County, FL”, “Franklin County, FL”, “Gadsden County, FL”, “Gulf County,
>>>>>>> FL”, “Holmes County, FL”, “Jackson County, FL”, “Jefferson County, FL”,
>>>>>>> “Leon County, FL”, “Liberty County, FL”, “Okaloosa County, FL”, “Santa Rosa
>>>>>>> County, FL”, “Wakulla County, FL”, “Walton County, FL”, “Washington County,
>>>>>>> FL”]"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "isAccessibleForFree": true,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "openingHours": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Mo 09:00-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Tu 09:00-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "We 09:00-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Th 09:00-17:00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "Fr 09:00-17:00"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "contactPoint": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    { "@type": "ContactPoint",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "url": "
>>>>>>> https://floi.legalserver.org/modules/matter/extern_intake.php?pid=38&h=757e8c
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "contactType": "Online Intake",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "areaServed": "Florida"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "availableLanguage": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "@type": "Language",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "name": "English",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "alternateName": "English"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "serviceLocation": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “@type”: “LegalService”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “name” : “Legal Services of North Florida: Pensacola office”,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “telephone” : “(850) 432-8222”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       “address”: {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "streetAddress": "118 South Baylen Street
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/118+South+Baylen+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressLocality": "Pensacola",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressRegion": "FL",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "postalCode": 32502
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “@type”: “LegalService”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “name” : “Legal Services of North Florida: Quincy Office”,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “telephone” : “(850) 875-9881”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       “address”: {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "streetAddress": "121 North Jackson Street
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/121+North+Jackson+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressLocality": "Quincy",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressRegion": "FL",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "postalCode": 32303
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “@type”: “LegalService”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “name” : “Legal Services of North Florida: Ft. Walton Beach”,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “telephone” : “(850) 862-3279”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       “address”: {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "streetAddress": "133 Staff Drive, NE
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/133+Staff+Drive,+NE?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressLocality": "Ft. Walton Beach",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressRegion": "FL",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "postalCode": 32548
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “@type”: “LegalService”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “name” : “Legal Services of North Florida: Panama City office”,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “telephone” : “(850) 769-3581”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       “address”: {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@type": "PostalAddress",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "streetAddress": "211 East 11th Street
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/211+East+11th+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      "addressLocality": "Panama City",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressRegion": "FL",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "postalCode": 32401
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “@type”: “LegalService”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “name” : “Legal Services of North Florida: Tallahassee office”,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     “telephone” : “(850) 385-9007”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       “address”: {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@type": "PostalAddress",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "streetAddress": "2119 Delta Blvd
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2119+Delta+Blvd?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>> .,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      "addressLocality": "Tallahassee",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "addressRegion": "FL",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        "postalCode": 32303”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@context": "http://www.schema.org",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "@type": "LegalService",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "name": "Law Help NY",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "url": "https://www.lawhelpny.org/",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "description": "Access to legal information and free legal help for
>>>>>>> New Yokers in need of legal assistance.",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "image": "
>>>>>>> https://www.lawhelpny.org/files/B23B29BF-0DED-F7B9-2149-1DB14E1A7DE5/images/LHNY%203_20.png
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "logo": "
>>>>>>> https://www.lawhelpny.org/files/B23B29BF-0DED-F7B9-2149-1DB14E1A7DE5/images/LHNY%203_20.png
>>>>>>> ",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "isAccessibleForFree": true,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "areaServed": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "@type": "AdministrativeArea",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "name": "New York"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "knowsAbout": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/DI-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/FA-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/CO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/HE-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/BE-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/HO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/WO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/MO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/ES-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/GO-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/VE-00-00-00-00",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "https://taxonomy.legal/term/RI-00-00-00-00"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ],
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "description": "Legal information for New Yorkers who cannot
>>>>>>> afford an attorney.",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "availableLanguage": {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "@type": "Language",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "name": [
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "English",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Spanish",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "French",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Korean",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Russian",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Polish",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Vietnamese",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Haitian; Haitian Creole",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Arabic",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Italian",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "Tagalog"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     ]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   },
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "email": "info@nylawhelp.org"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> acrimer.com
>>>>> <https://acrimer.com?utm_source=signature&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=passive>
>>>>> schedule a call <https://calendly.com/acrimer>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> acrimer.com
>>>>> <https://acrimer.com?utm_source=signature&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=passive>
>>>>> schedule a call <https://calendly.com/acrimer>
>>>>>
>>>>
Received on Wednesday, 25 March 2020 15:25:41 UTC

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