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Re: Political Rhetoric Vocabulary

From: Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 15:32:25 +0100
Message-ID: <CAK-qy=7zRNskHmxgmhO8K3Vikn=9B_uZ_s6W7aawnCrtR=EyuA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "R.V.Guha" <guha@guha.com>
Cc: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>, Chaals from Yandex <chaals@yandex-team.ru>, Joe Duarte <songofapollo@gmail.com>, Eric Franzon <eric.franzon@gmail.com>, Paul Watson <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>, "schema.org Mailing List" <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
Hey Guha,

It looks like you had some good discussions, ... but we could discuss this
forever. Can you fold the various points back into a consolidated list of
new terms? Target should be a file following the pattern in
data/ext/pending/*.rdfa in the repo, named after a corresponding tracking
issue.

Dan


On 26 March 2017 at 03:42, R.V.Guha <guha@guha.com> wrote:

> There are both. A proclamation issued by the same person has a different
> status than an order. And then, we can have the same kind of 'speech act'
> spoken by people at different levels.
>
> I agree about ExecutiveOrder and deliveredBy.
>
> gha
>
> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Richard Wallis <
> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>
>> Many of the use case differences described in this thread are more to do
>> with the person, or possibly organisation, than the type of speech/
>> proclamation/address/press release that they are giving.
>>
>> If that person is POTUS, or another head of state, or the chair of a
>> small town administration, or a candidate in an election, it is their
>> status that is a qualifier to the type of speech etc.
>>
>> To that end we could include a new property *speaker*, or perhaps
>> *deliveredBy*, with a range of *Speech* & *Proclamation*.
>>
>>  A sub property of creator ?
>>
>> Like @Chaals, I am not so sure on *ExecutiveAction - *maybe a rename to
>> *ExecutiveOrder* would help (also with a *deliveredBy* property).
>>
>> ~Richard.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Wallis
>> Founder, Data Liberate
>> http://dataliberate.com
>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>> Twitter: @rjw
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 14:33, R.V.Guha <guha@guha.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are two differences. There are statements made by heads of state
>>> that are not proclamations. Such as vetos, executive actions and many more.
>>> Second, not all proclamations are made by a head of state. Heck, my little
>>> town of Los Altos periodically makes proclamations.
>>>
>>> guha
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 4:25 AM, <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Guha,
>>>>
>>>> a few clarifying questions…
>>>>
>>>> 17.03.2017, 21:09, "R.V.Guha" <guha@guha.com>:
>>>>
>>>> Revised, highly simplified first step for the core.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Political Discourse Vocabulary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New subClass of CreativeWork: Speech, PressRelease,
>>>> HeadOfStateStatement, Proclamation, ExecutiveAction
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you explain what the difference is between a HeadOfStateStatement
>>>> and a Proclamation?
>>>>
>>>> And what an ExecutiveAction is - particularly because it looks like
>>>> something out of the Actions vocabulary…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New subClass of Speech: InauguralAddress, CommencementAddress,
>>>> CampaignSpeech, StateOfUnionReport
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the difference between an InauguralAddress and a CommencementAddress
>>>> that in the former it is the first speech of an office-holder, while in the
>>>> latter it is a speech to some other group, such as the king or governer or
>>>> someone opening parliament?
>>>>
>>>> StateOfUnionReport seems to be one of a class of regular events. It
>>>> doesn't seem that the State of the Union is different from any number of
>>>> memorial speeches presented annually, the annual "budget speech" of the
>>>> Australian government, and so on. I suggest we generalise this to
>>>> "RecurrentSpeechEvent" or something - the name of the event should be
>>>> enough to identify it rather than having to make a stack of classes for
>>>> specific events.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New subClass of Event: PressEvent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems reasonable enough.
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> Chaals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:55, R.V.Guha <guha@guha.com> wrote:
>>>> > You are right. Political Discourse might be a better name for it.
>>>>
>>>> There are various overlapping ways in which these things might be
>>>> organized wr.t. "named hosted extension" subdomains ("lega" has been
>>>> mentioned for related work around legislation, courts etc; "civic" is
>>>> also in the air). My suggestion would be to asap get the basic term
>>>> definitions drafted into the "pending" section so that they can be
>>>> used and tested, and worry about how to name packages of terms as a
>>>> separable problem. Any attempt to partition vocab is always tricky
>>>> (e.g. ClaimReview for fact-checking is also discourse/argumentation)
>>>> but it shouldn't stop us from getting the basics in place. I'd also
>>>> like to see the earlier Legislation proposal progress, and wouldn't
>>>> want to slow either of these down by forcing a big debate for whether
>>>> they are part of a big "legal" vs "civic" vs "discourse" section....
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>> ps. we also have http://pending.schema.org/Quotation which has some
>>>> discussion in https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/271 around
>>>> citations and date/time details
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > guha
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Joe Duarte <songofapollo@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Okay, so now that I see the subClasses, I'm not sure this is about
>>>> >> rhetoric. I thought this vocab was going to be about the sorts of
>>>> arguments
>>>> >> and appeals that people make in politics, maybe something along the
>>>> lines of
>>>> >> AML: http://www.ai.sri.com/~seas/aml/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> or what this W3C group is working on:
>>>> >> https://www.w3.org/community/argumentation/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Rhetoric is about language, persuasion, and reasoning:
>>>> >> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetoric
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Another way to put it: rhetoric is about content and style.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The vocab we have so far seems more like a list of events, of venues
>>>> where
>>>> >> a politician might give a speech, as well as a couple of documents a
>>>> US
>>>> >> President might issue (and others have noted the US-centricity of
>>>> it).
>>>> >> That's not really about rhetoric – that's just a list of things
>>>> Presidents
>>>> >> do in the general domain of speeches and press releases.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It also strikes me as odd that Political Rhetoric would be narrowed
>>>> down
>>>> >> to what chief executives of a nation do. Even if we thought that
>>>> rhetoric
>>>> >> meant giving a speech to this audience, then to another audience,
>>>> etc.,
>>>> >> there's no reason to suppose that the only speakers we care about
>>>> are chief
>>>> >> executives of countries. That's not even half of the goings-on in
>>>> the domain
>>>> >> of politicians going around giving speeches and releasing statements
>>>> or
>>>> >> orders. There are legislators, governors, state legislators,
>>>> lobbyists,
>>>> >> activists, etc. – a lot of political action of the
>>>> speeches-and-releases
>>>> >> variety doesn't even come from people in government, but people
>>>> outside of
>>>> >> it. So if this is meant specifically to encode some important things
>>>> about
>>>> >> what national chief executives do, I suggest calling it something
>>>> more like
>>>> >> Political Events or Political Addresses.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> By the way, I'll probably try to dovetail with this at some point in
>>>> the
>>>> >> next or so – I own argumentbase.com (there's nothing there yet),
>>>> but I plan
>>>> >> to build a schema for arguments and positions (mostly political in
>>>> nature),
>>>> >> including evidence quality, which will be very interesting and
>>>> perilous as
>>>> >> far as pulling it off without ruining it with unconscious political
>>>> biases
>>>> >> (I'm the lead author of this paper, so I'm always worried about
>>>> political
>>>> >> bias.) I'll need a lot of help to keep it clean and maximally useful.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ciao,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Joe
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:44 AM, R.V.Guha <guha@guha.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Absolutely. My hope is to have both.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> guha
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Eric Franzon <
>>>> eric.franzon@gmail.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> My preference is for InauguralAddress, as HOS is specific to the
>>>> country
>>>> >>>> level, but I would like to be able to describe entities such as
>>>> those in
>>>> >>>> this page:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> https://www.westgov.org/news/357-news-2017/1341-western-gove
>>>> rnors-deliver-inaugural-speeches
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --Eric
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 3:54 PM, R.V.Guha <guha@guha.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Hi,
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> What is the reasoning behind having both "InauguralAddress" and
>>>> >>>>>> "USPInauguralAddress"? My concern is that (unless we adopt a
>>>> less US-centric
>>>> >>>>>> prefix such as "HOS" - see below) then we will end up with
>>>> requests for
>>>> >>>>>> near-identical classes for many other major countries.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> InauguralAddress could potentially cover a much larger set of
>>>> >>>>> inaugurals. but I completely agree with your suggestion of
>>>> replacing USP
>>>> >>>>> with HOS.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> guha
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> Eric Axel Franzon
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ericfranzon
>>>> >>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/EricAxel
>>>> >>>> G+: http://http://gplus.to/ericfranzon
>>>> >>>> Online Business Card: http://ericaxel.magntize.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Charles McCathie Nevile - standards - Yandex
>>>> chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
Received on Monday, 22 May 2017 14:33:29 UTC

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