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Re: Proposal – extension for Athletics

From: Aaron Bradley <aaranged@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 08:19:57 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMbipBsjetp-+HVFZK63bXQra1g=zrNhjPXf6YJrCU9LNP887w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Vicki Tardif Holland <vtardif@google.com>
Cc: Phil Barker <phil.barker@hw.ac.uk>, Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com>, "schema.org Mailing List" <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
Fair enough VickI. And I really don't think these types of awards are
prizes.

>From a modelling perspective I think the salient challenge here is how to
represent an award that's awarded annually or at some other interval - as
opposed to an ad hoc award, or something "awarded" for completing something
(e.g. certificate of achievement).

On May 18, 2017 8:01 AM, "Vicki Tardif Holland" <vtardif@google.com> wrote:

> Without wanting to be contrary, even for something like the Fields Medal
>> 1998 or Nobel Prize for Literature 2001 I think Thad's "prize" definition
>> is more applicable than his "award, badge, achievement" definition.  At
>> least in the sense you don't get a Nobel Prize for, say, finishing writing
>> something, but for being the best writer of things among an implicit but
>> very real field of competitors (all writers of things, for the Fields all
>> practitioners of mathematics).  So I do think that it *is* actually more
>> like a prize for athletics than an award for passing an exam.  On the other
>> hand, I do concede that a Nobel Prize isn't awarded for an event per se -
>> almost more like a prize awarded for a *season *(analogous in sport to
>> something like the Heisman Trophy, although there the competitors -
>> nominees for the award - are explicit).
>
>
> This feels like trying to shoehorn something into an overly narrow
> definition. Things like the Nobel Prize are for a body of work, which
> generally does not have clean cut start/end dates.
>
> And what do you do with things like the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award?
> To say Michael Jackson was the "best musician" is an odd interpretation of
> that award.
>
> - Vicki
>
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Aaron Bradley <aaranged@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks all for your input.  I especially like your classifications of
>> awards and prizes Thad, and the narrower definition of prize you provide -
>> though regarding that definition, only to a point:
>> > Prize - award given to a winner of a competitive event
>>
>> I'm more aligned with Phil here:
>> > So how about changing the definition to explicitly say what Aaron
>> asserted (and allow for >1 prize):
>> > "A prize awarded for a competition"
>>
>> Though mostly for the "and allow for >1 prize" part, so the Thad
>> definition might be modified to say:
>> "Prize - award given to a winner or winners of a competitive event"
>>
>> Examples of prizes awarded to more than one winner of a competition
>> abound, of course - think gold, silver, bronze for an Olympic Games
>> competition.  Which is why in our model we have the following properties
>> (all of data type "integer"):
>> position - The position to which this prize is awarded.
>> maxPosition - The highest position (lowest number) to which this prize is
>> awarded.
>> minPosition - The lowest position (highest number) to which this prize is
>> awarded.
>>
>> maxPosition and minPosition are useful because there are often events -
>> er, competitions - for which the same prize is awarded to a range of
>> competitors that finish.  Most critically here for video game competitions
>> (and many other types of competitions) is that players in the top X advance
>> to the next round, where the prizeAwarded is a Qualification.
>>
>> Tangentially (and without going too far down a rabbit hole) I'll note
>> that many "awards for an achievement" are often IMO de facto "prizes for a
>> competition" despite how they're labelled - and especially when an award is
>> time-bound.  The 2011 Academy Award for Best Picture is really an prize
>> awarded for a competition - the competitors being those pictures nominated
>> for Best Picture for that year.  On that note I'll note with thanks too the
>> feedback provided on whether on not a prize should be restricted to
>> something awarded for an *event*, which narrowing the definition of a
>> prize to be an award for a *competition* solves, I think.
>>
>> > A Nobel Prize may not fall within this definition, but maybe it is more
>> like an award for passing an exam than a prize for athletics or solving
>> crossword puzzles.
>>
>> Without wanting to be contrary, even for something like the Fields Medal
>> 1998 or Nobel Prize for Literature 2001 I think Thad's "prize" definition
>> is more applicable than his "award, badge, achievement" definition.  At
>> least in the sense you don't get a Nobel Prize for, say, finishing writing
>> something, but for being the best writer of things among an implicit but
>> very real field of competitors (all writers of things, for the Fields all
>> practitioners of mathematics).  So I do think that it *is* actually more
>> like a prize for athletics than an award for passing an exam.  On the other
>> hand, I do concede that a Nobel Prize isn't awarded for an event per se -
>> almost more like a prize awarded for a *season *(analogous in sport to
>> something like the Heisman Trophy, although there the competitors -
>> nominees for the award - are explicit).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil,
>>>
>>> Yeap, we're saying the same things.
>>> I was pointing out the subtle differences also.
>>>
>>> 1. Completing something
>>> 2. Discovering something
>>>
>>> 3. Receiving something for accomplishing # 1
>>> 4. Receiving something for accomplishing # 2
>>>
>>> (In English we have multiple words to choose for all 4 of those concepts)
>>>
>>> Where this proposal is for # 3.  I get that. I understand that.
>>>
>>> But there are Type needs for # 1, # 2, and # 4  where we are missing
>>> subtypes that we currently don't have.
>>>
>>> # 3  Prize - award given to a winner of a competitive event
>>> # 4  Award, Badge, Achievement - an award for finishing or completing a
>>> Goal
>>>
>>> # 2 Discovery
>>> # 1 Finished
>>>
>>> I don't want to mix the 4 concepts in Schema.org.  Another vocabulary
>>> besides Schema.org is welcome to mix those and confuse publishers and
>>> machines.
>>>
>>> (I also prefer my definition of a Prize, since it mentions its given to
>>> a winner, and less confusing when translated to other languages.  Whereas
>>> Aaron's definition gives the feeling that the prize is given to the
>>> competition itself and not the winner)
>>>
>>> Anyways, I think the above now summarizes my true feelings.
>>> -Thad
>>> +ThadGuidry <https://www.google.com/+ThadGuidry>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Thursday, 18 May 2017 15:20:33 UTC

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