- From: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
- Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:43:39 +0000
- To: Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu>
- Cc: "public-schemaorg@w3.org" <public-schemaorg@w3.org>, "Han, Myung-Ja" <mhan3@illinois.edu>, "Sarol, Maria Janina" <mjsarol@illinois.edu>, "Kinnaman, Alex Olivia" <kinnama2@illinois.edu>, "Cole, Timothy W" <t-cole3@illinois.edu>
- Message-ID: <CAD47Kz7qT5LH1fhnrmpnd1o1V88Mi1K3yWrhG5oBU5ajLDveug@mail.gmail.com>
I think we are conflating 3 separate aspects here. Firstly the relationship between a play, a production(s) of that play, and individual performance(s) of a production. I think the suggestion of using CreativeWorkSeries “a group of related items, typically but not necessarily of the same kind” is maybe leading us off at a tangent. The series approach is often used for things like The *Harry Potter series of movies*, or the *For Dummies Book series*. The production(s) of a play are not normally a series they are different creative interpretations of the play. To that end I see a production as its own CreativeWork(play subtype) that is an example of the original creative work (Play subtype). A production is performed one or more times at individual performance ‘events’ these could possibly collected together into a season/run/festival - an event with individual subEvents Next we have the relationship between the Play/CreativeWork and other creative works that contribute to, or are associated with, but not part of the work - as per the example of stage notes. Eric’s suggestion of using ‘mention’ or ‘about’ is a step in the right direction but I agree it does not quite capture what is needed. What if there was a ‘relatedWork’ or ‘associatedWork’ property available on CreativeWork? Then there is the issue of how to describe the different types of contributors/performers associated with a CreativeWork beyond the common ones that already are defined, such as actor, author, director, composer, etc. In proposing a Play type there is the option to propose some play relevant properties. Director, choreographer, conductor, are potential candidates but, in a generic vocabulary such as Schema.org, how far down the production team list is it practical to go? What about carpenter, wigs mistress, chief electrician, etc.? When you move beyond a few common jobs that might make sense to add to Play, we need to look at using the Role <http://schema.org/Role> construct: Play: > name: “The Tempest” > contributor: > Role: > roleName: “Carpenter” > contributor > Person: > name: “Joe Soap” For more on Role see The role of Role in Schema.org <http://dataliberate.com/2015/04/15/the-role-of-role-in-schema-org/>. So as to a proposal for Play oriented properties, we should constrain ourselves to a few obvious ones, defaulting to using Role as we get further down the credit list - as the Movie folks do. Finally a question as to the narrowness of what is being discussed/proposed. Are we (or could we) covering other live show possibilities? Musical, Concert, Variety Show, Comedy Club Night, Cabaret, Opera, are all possibilities that come to mind. ~Richard. Richard Wallis Founder, Data Liberate http://dataliberate.com Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis Twitter: @rjw On 3 March 2016 at 18:50, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> wrote: > Still missing the concern. The example is more like this: > > > - Amelia: Mourning is a VisualArtwork A1 > - A1 has a genre of costume design drawings > - Vanity Fair is a Play (which would presumably be a subtype of > Creative Work but which does not yet exist in the schema vocab.) P1 (from > here we could proceed as Richard has in his example but far better is > Jeff's suggestion to use Creative Work Series) > - workExample P2 > - The 2016 production of P1 is a Play Series (non-existing subtype for > Creative Work Series) P2 > - P2 starts on date of 4-Jan > - P2 ends on date of 29-Feb > - The 4-Jan 7:15 performance of P2 is a Theatrical Event E1 > - workPerformed P2 > > The problem is that schema lacks vocabulary to link A1 to P2 (or even to > E1). We could potentially use the mentions predicate that Eric suggests but > the definition of mentions does not match the actual role that A1 plays in > P2. And so we need some properties that are missing and that could be > attached to either P2 or E1. > > In addition to the (pre)visualizations and stage notes, I'm also missing a > good way to distinguish between dancers and actors and also between > directors, conductors, and choreographers. Nominally I could group them all > using the performer or organizer (respectively) predicates and then > differentiate among them using roles. But since I have many instances of > each this leads to an explosion of 'Event performer Person role Role' > sub-graphs. Better would be if I could define actor and dancer > sub-properties for performer and similarly director, choreographer and > conductor sub-properties for organizer and thereby limit the growth of my > triples. > > A complication that Tim has pointed out is that the properties of events > and entities in schema do not seem to be distinct but rather overlap > leading to awkward situations where I'm potentially listing the performers > and other property objects in multiple places (i.e., they are weirdly > shared between an entity and an event even though the entity takes part in > the event and so presumably we'd already have the information in hand from > the entity). The point being is where a Creative Work Series ends and an > Event begins is difficult to see (or even where a Creative Work ends and an > Event begins). And as always in this case A1 is the entity of chief import. > Relating events and other creative works back to it is the goal. > > _____________________________________________________ > Jacob Jett > Research Assistant > Center for Informatics Research in Science and Scholarship > The Graduate School of Library and Information Science > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > 501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493, Champaign, IL 61820-6211 USA > (217) 244-2164 > jjett2@illinois.edu > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Richard Wallis < > richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote: > >> Shooting from the hip on this - which is where some worked through >> examples would help…. >> >> I would see: >> >> - Hamlet by Will Shakespeare to be a Play (subtype of CreativeWork) - >> P1 >> - - workExample P2 >> - The 2016 production of Hamlet from the RSC to be a Play P2 >> - - exampleOfWork P1 >> - The 2016 Season of Hamlet at Stratford-upon-avon to be an Event - >> E1 >> - - workPerformed P2 >> - - subEvent E2 >> - The March 12th 7:15pm performance to be an Event E2 >> - - workPerformed P2 >> - - superEvent E1 >> >> ~Richard >> >> >> Richard Wallis >> Founder, Data Liberate >> http://dataliberate.com >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dataliberate.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=NNhB2CGYGQzhOgLJ_7IybJIqb7wG-AfOrprPI6rD7gM&e=> >> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_richardwallis&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=4tldo-QlzoS67SqUHty0wYcrfNx4FUWQZa0egoo3l2A&e=> >> Twitter: @rjw >> >> On 3 March 2016 at 15:49, Pete Rivett <pete.rivett@adaptive.com> wrote: >> >>> So would a production be an Event (with start and end dates representing >>> the whole run) with the performances on specific days as subEvents? >>> >>> [I guess this is akin to a movie being shown at the same theater for 2 >>> weeks]. >>> >>> >>> >>> Can one rely on properties (such as workPerformed, location, performer, >>> duration) being derived from the superEvent (production) without needing to >>> be repeated for each subEvent (performance)? >>> >>> >>> >>> BTW it seems that the property firstPerformance is too restrictively >>> typed to MusicComposition. Given that workPerformed has type CreativeWork, >>> then surely firstPerformance should be a property of CreativeWork. >>> >>> >>> >>> Pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Richard Wallis [mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com] >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:19 AM >>> *To:* Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> >>> *Cc:* public-schemaorg@w3.org; Myung-Ja Han <mhan3@illinois.edu>; >>> Sarol, Maria Janina Dela Cruz <mjsarol@illinois.edu>; Kinnaman, Alex >>> Olivia <kinnama2@illinois.edu>; Cole, Timothy W <t-cole3@illinois.edu> >>> *Subject:* Re: Suggestion for new category >>> >>> >>> >>> You are right to identify the differences between ‘the play’, >>> productions of the play, and performances of the production. >>> >>> >>> >>> Much of the structure of this is availably via CreativeWork properties >>> such as hasPart, isPartOf, exampleOfWork, workExample, plus the temporal >>> aspects of Role that would allow you to associate individual contributors >>> to specific stages of the process. >>> >>> >>> >>> Based upon established Schema.org patterns, I would advise separating >>> the event (place/time) aspects from the Creative aspects. >>> >>> >>> >>> As to associating elements of the process that contributed to the >>> combined work, but not part of the final play - I think that is down to how >>> you describe those individual preproduction parts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Working on some examples as was done for Books, Articles, TVSeries & >>> TVSeason, etc. would help work through these questions and help support a >>> proposal for a Play type >>> >>> >>> >>> ~Richard. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Richard Wallis >>> >>> Founder, Data Liberate >>> >>> http://dataliberate.com >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dataliberate.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=NNhB2CGYGQzhOgLJ_7IybJIqb7wG-AfOrprPI6rD7gM&e=> >>> >>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_richardwallis&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=4tldo-QlzoS67SqUHty0wYcrfNx4FUWQZa0egoo3l2A&e=> >>> >>> Twitter: @rjw >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3 March 2016 at 14:54, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> wrote: >>> >>> That makes perfect sense. However, if we go the 'isPartOf' route don't >>> we loose the contextual component that set and costume sketches and >>> photographs play in the development of the production? I.e., they are not >>> parts of the finished work -- the play -- per se but are deeply involved in >>> the evolution of a performance of the final product. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wouldn't it make more sense if they were parts of particular Theatrical >>> Events, as just like the performers of said events, costumes and set >>> designs can also vary from performance to performance of the same play. >>> >>> >>> _____________________________________________________ >>> >>> Jacob Jett >>> Research Assistant >>> Center for Informatics Research in Science and Scholarship >>> The Graduate School of Library and Information Science >>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >>> 501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493, Champaign, IL 61820-6211 USA >>> (217) 244-2164 >>> jjett2@illinois.edu >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Richard Wallis < >>> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote: >>> >>> Not wishing to overload CreativeWork in the subtypes department, but >>> ‘Play’ does seem to be an obvious missing candidate. >>> >>> >>> >>> I don’t really think the ’Stage’ qualification is necessary. Most of the >>> properties you reference would be inherited from CreativeWork. The >>> exceptions being some of the more specific contributors such as >>> StageDesigner and WadrobeKeeper. These could be handled as per some of >>> the roles in the movie industry are - using the Role >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__schema.org_Role&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=5tMndZFeOWtA7vej-9XwBZdhVTmH18Mj5t17yfmtpCo&s=5O53HrBuYZ2xJ8k-qXNdxOWXiTOMowrhAlGWPP953a8&e=> >>> construct. >>> >>> >>> >>> You could then connect the individual performances to the Play using >>> TheaterEvent if appropriate using the workPerformed property. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3 March 2016 at 14:27, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> wrote: >>> >>> We have a similar use case but also need to account for things like >>> costume sketches and photographs (and same for storyboards, set designs, >>> etc.). Should we just extend the TheaterEvent with new predicates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Most if not all of those things would be CreativeWorks or subtypes >>> thereof, in their own right and could be considered ‘isPartOf’ of the play. >>> >>> >>> >>> ~Richard >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Tim Turner <tturner@flumc.org> wrote: >>> >>> There is a TheaterEvent that could be expanded from this list. >>> >>> https://schema.org/TheaterEvent >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__schema.org_TheaterEvent&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=5tMndZFeOWtA7vej-9XwBZdhVTmH18Mj5t17yfmtpCo&s=aa63bKAMCvVjSnfsJFaXpaSAqbwat8spFGjc7owW85E&e=> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Webmestre Globetrottoirs [mailto:webmaster@globetrottoirs.com] >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:05 PM >>> *To:* public-schemaorg@w3.org >>> *Subject:* Suggestion for new category >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am working on a theater group website. >>> >>> >>> >>> When trying to code micro-data, I felt that the following schema is >>> missing. >>> >>> >>> >>> In the “Creativework” schema, could we add “TheaterPlay”, which would >>> have the following properties : >>> >>> >>> >>> *Name* – expected type : text – description : the name of the play >>> >>> *Author* – expected type : text – description : the author of the play >>> >>> *Director* – expected type : text – description : the person who >>> directed the play >>> >>> *Actor* – expected type : text – description : the actors of the play >>> >>> *Character* – expected type : text – description : the characters of >>> the play >>> >>> *Composer* – expected type : text – description : the composer of the >>> music used in the play >>> >>> *Genre* – expected type : text – description : the genre of the play >>> (eg : musical theatre, gesture theatre, pantomime, …) >>> >>> *StageDesigner* – expected type : text – description : the person who >>> designed the settings >>> >>> *WardrobeKeeper* – expected type : text – description : the person who >>> designed or created the wardrobe. >>> >>> >>> >>> It could be also usefull to create schema related to dance or mime, etc… >>> >>> >>> >>> Do you think it is possible to do this ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for your answer. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely. >>> >>> >>> >>> Stéphane Reboul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >
Received on Thursday, 3 March 2016 21:44:13 UTC