Re: Suggestion for new category

I think we are conflating 3 separate aspects here.

Firstly the relationship between a play, a production(s) of that play, and
individual performance(s) of a production.  I think the suggestion of using
CreativeWorkSeries “a group of related items, typically but not necessarily
of the same kind” is maybe leading us off at a tangent.  The series
approach is often used for things like The *Harry Potter series of movies*,
or the *For Dummies Book series*.   The production(s) of a play are not
normally a series they are different creative interpretations of the play.
  To that end I see a production as its own CreativeWork(play subtype) that
is an example of the original creative work (Play subtype).

A production is performed one or more times at individual performance
‘events’ these could possibly collected together into a season/run/festival
- an event with individual subEvents


Next we have the relationship between the Play/CreativeWork and other
creative works that contribute to, or are associated with, but not part of
the work - as per the example of stage notes.  Eric’s suggestion of using
‘mention’ or ‘about’ is a step in the right direction but I agree it does
not quite capture what is needed.  What if there was a ‘relatedWork’ or
‘associatedWork’ property available on CreativeWork?

Then there is the issue of how to describe the different types of
contributors/performers associated with a CreativeWork beyond the common
ones that already are defined, such as actor, author, director, composer,
etc.   In proposing a Play type there is the option to propose some play
relevant properties.  Director, choreographer, conductor, are potential
candidates but, in a generic vocabulary such as Schema.org, how far down
the production team list is it practical to go?  What about carpenter, wigs
mistress, chief electrician, etc.?

When you move beyond a few common jobs that might make sense to add to
Play, we need to look at using the Role <http://schema.org/Role> construct:

Play:
   > name: “The Tempest”
   > contributor: > Role:
                        > roleName: “Carpenter”
                        > contributor >  Person:
                                            > name: “Joe Soap”

For more on Role see The role of Role in Schema.org
<http://dataliberate.com/2015/04/15/the-role-of-role-in-schema-org/>.

So as to a proposal for Play oriented properties, we should constrain
ourselves to a few obvious ones, defaulting to using Role as we get further
down the credit list - as the Movie folks do.

Finally a question as to the narrowness of what is being
discussed/proposed.   Are we (or could we) covering other live show
possibilities?  Musical, Concert, Variety Show, Comedy Club Night, Cabaret,
Opera,  are all possibilities that come to mind.

~Richard.

Richard Wallis
Founder, Data Liberate
http://dataliberate.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
Twitter: @rjw

On 3 March 2016 at 18:50, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> wrote:

> Still missing the concern. The example is more like this:
>
>
>    - Amelia: Mourning is a VisualArtwork A1
>    - A1 has a genre of costume design drawings
>    - Vanity Fair is a Play (which would presumably be a subtype of
>    Creative Work but which does not yet exist in the schema vocab.) P1 (from
>    here we could proceed as Richard has in his example but far better is
>    Jeff's suggestion to use Creative Work Series)
>       - workExample P2
>    - The 2016 production of P1 is a Play Series (non-existing subtype for
>    Creative Work Series) P2
>       - P2 starts on date of 4-Jan
>       - P2 ends on date of 29-Feb
>    - The 4-Jan 7:15 performance of P2 is a Theatrical Event E1
>       - workPerformed P2
>
> The problem is that schema lacks vocabulary to link A1 to P2 (or even to
> E1). We could potentially use the mentions predicate that Eric suggests but
> the definition of mentions does not match the actual role that A1 plays in
> P2. And so we need some properties that are missing and that could be
> attached to either P2 or E1.
>
> In addition to the (pre)visualizations and stage notes, I'm also missing a
> good way to distinguish between dancers and actors and also between
> directors, conductors, and choreographers. Nominally I could group them all
> using the performer or organizer (respectively) predicates and then
> differentiate among them using roles. But since I have many instances of
> each this leads to an explosion of 'Event performer Person role Role'
> sub-graphs. Better would be if I could define actor and dancer
> sub-properties for performer and similarly director, choreographer and
> conductor sub-properties for organizer and thereby limit the growth of my
> triples.
>
> A complication that Tim has pointed out is that the properties of events
> and entities in schema do not seem to be distinct but rather overlap
> leading to awkward situations where I'm potentially listing the performers
> and other property objects in multiple places (i.e., they are weirdly
> shared between an entity and an event even though the entity takes part in
> the event and so presumably we'd already have the information in hand from
> the entity). The point being is where a Creative Work Series ends and an
> Event begins is difficult to see (or even where a Creative Work ends and an
> Event begins). And as always in this case A1 is the entity of chief import.
> Relating events and other creative works back to it is the goal.
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Jacob Jett
> Research Assistant
> Center for Informatics Research in Science and Scholarship
> The Graduate School of Library and Information Science
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
> 501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493, Champaign, IL 61820-6211 USA
> (217) 244-2164
> jjett2@illinois.edu
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Richard Wallis <
> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>
>> Shooting from the hip on this - which is where some worked through
>> examples would help….
>>
>> I would see:
>>
>>    - Hamlet by Will Shakespeare to be a Play (subtype of CreativeWork) -
>>    P1
>>    - - workExample P2
>>    - The 2016 production of Hamlet from the RSC to be a Play P2
>>       - - exampleOfWork P1
>>    - The 2016 Season of Hamlet at Stratford-upon-avon to be an Event -
>>    E1
>>       - - workPerformed P2
>>       - - subEvent E2
>>    - The March 12th 7:15pm performance to be an Event E2
>>       - - workPerformed P2
>>       - - superEvent E1
>>
>> ~Richard
>>
>>
>> Richard Wallis
>> Founder, Data Liberate
>> http://dataliberate.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dataliberate.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=NNhB2CGYGQzhOgLJ_7IybJIqb7wG-AfOrprPI6rD7gM&e=>
>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_richardwallis&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=4tldo-QlzoS67SqUHty0wYcrfNx4FUWQZa0egoo3l2A&e=>
>> Twitter: @rjw
>>
>> On 3 March 2016 at 15:49, Pete Rivett <pete.rivett@adaptive.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So would a production be an Event (with start and end dates representing
>>> the whole run) with the performances on specific days as subEvents?
>>>
>>> [I guess this is akin to a movie being shown at the same theater for 2
>>> weeks].
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can one rely on properties (such as workPerformed, location, performer,
>>> duration) being derived from the superEvent (production) without needing to
>>> be repeated for each subEvent (performance)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW it seems that the property firstPerformance is too restrictively
>>> typed to MusicComposition. Given that workPerformed has type CreativeWork,
>>> then surely firstPerformance should be a property of CreativeWork.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Richard Wallis [mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:19 AM
>>> *To:* Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu>
>>> *Cc:* public-schemaorg@w3.org; Myung-Ja Han <mhan3@illinois.edu>;
>>> Sarol, Maria Janina Dela Cruz <mjsarol@illinois.edu>; Kinnaman, Alex
>>> Olivia <kinnama2@illinois.edu>; Cole, Timothy W <t-cole3@illinois.edu>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Suggestion for new category
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right to identify the differences between ‘the play’,
>>> productions of the play, and performances of the production.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Much of the structure of this is availably via CreativeWork properties
>>> such as hasPart, isPartOf, exampleOfWork, workExample, plus the temporal
>>> aspects of Role that would allow you to associate individual contributors
>>> to specific stages of the process.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Based upon established Schema.org patterns, I would advise separating
>>> the event (place/time) aspects from the Creative aspects.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As to associating elements of the process that contributed to the
>>> combined work, but not part of the final play - I think that is down to how
>>> you describe those individual preproduction parts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Working on some examples as was done for Books, Articles, TVSeries &
>>> TVSeason, etc. would help work through these questions and help support a
>>> proposal for a Play type
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Richard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Wallis
>>>
>>> Founder, Data Liberate
>>>
>>> http://dataliberate.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dataliberate.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=NNhB2CGYGQzhOgLJ_7IybJIqb7wG-AfOrprPI6rD7gM&e=>
>>>
>>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_richardwallis&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=ipmzdTzMNJCMUZuxn7gGcQEFS4CL1VTdxuaP3GOL_b0&s=4tldo-QlzoS67SqUHty0wYcrfNx4FUWQZa0egoo3l2A&e=>
>>>
>>> Twitter: @rjw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3 March 2016 at 14:54, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> That makes perfect sense. However, if we go the 'isPartOf' route don't
>>> we loose the contextual component that set and costume sketches and
>>> photographs play in the development of the production? I.e., they are not
>>> parts of the finished work -- the play -- per se but are deeply involved in
>>> the evolution of a performance of the final product.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it make more sense if they were parts of particular Theatrical
>>> Events, as just like the performers of said events, costumes and set
>>> designs can also vary from performance to performance of the same play.
>>>
>>>
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Jacob Jett
>>> Research Assistant
>>> Center for Informatics Research in Science and Scholarship
>>> The Graduate School of Library and Information Science
>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>>> 501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493, Champaign, IL 61820-6211 USA
>>> (217) 244-2164
>>> jjett2@illinois.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Richard Wallis <
>>> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not wishing to overload CreativeWork in the subtypes department, but
>>> ‘Play’ does seem to be an obvious missing candidate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t really think the ’Stage’ qualification is necessary. Most of the
>>> properties you reference would be inherited from CreativeWork.  The
>>> exceptions being some of the more specific contributors such as
>>> StageDesigner and WadrobeKeeper.   These could be handled as per some of
>>> the roles in the movie industry are - using the Role
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__schema.org_Role&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=5tMndZFeOWtA7vej-9XwBZdhVTmH18Mj5t17yfmtpCo&s=5O53HrBuYZ2xJ8k-qXNdxOWXiTOMowrhAlGWPP953a8&e=>
>>> construct.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You could then connect the individual performances to the Play using
>>> TheaterEvent if appropriate using the workPerformed property.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3 March 2016 at 14:27, Jacob Jett <jjett2@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> We have a similar use case but also need to account for things like
>>> costume sketches and photographs (and same for storyboards, set designs,
>>> etc.). Should we just extend the TheaterEvent with new predicates?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Most if not all of those things would be CreativeWorks or subtypes
>>> thereof, in their own right and could be considered ‘isPartOf’ of the play.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Tim Turner <tturner@flumc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a TheaterEvent that could be expanded from this list.
>>>
>>> https://schema.org/TheaterEvent
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__schema.org_TheaterEvent&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=npggDwlZ6PziBzPBZthSo0f8iGOgRMf9ulO6o4WwfiA&m=5tMndZFeOWtA7vej-9XwBZdhVTmH18Mj5t17yfmtpCo&s=aa63bKAMCvVjSnfsJFaXpaSAqbwat8spFGjc7owW85E&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Webmestre Globetrottoirs [mailto:webmaster@globetrottoirs.com]
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:05 PM
>>> *To:* public-schemaorg@w3.org
>>> *Subject:* Suggestion for new category
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am working on a theater group website.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When trying to code micro-data, I felt that the following schema is
>>> missing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the “Creativework” schema, could we add “TheaterPlay”, which would
>>> have the following properties :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Name* – expected type : text – description : the name of the play
>>>
>>> *Author* – expected type : text – description : the author of the play
>>>
>>> *Director* – expected type : text – description : the person who
>>> directed the play
>>>
>>> *Actor* – expected type : text – description : the actors of the play
>>>
>>> *Character* – expected type : text – description : the characters of
>>> the play
>>>
>>> *Composer* – expected type : text – description : the composer of the
>>> music used in the play
>>>
>>> *Genre* – expected type : text – description : the genre of the play
>>> (eg : musical theatre, gesture theatre, pantomime, …)
>>>
>>> *StageDesigner* – expected type : text – description : the person who
>>> designed the settings
>>>
>>> *WardrobeKeeper* – expected type : text – description : the person who
>>> designed or created the wardrobe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It could be also usefull to create schema related to dance or mime, etc…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you think it is possible to do this ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your answer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stéphane Reboul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>