Re: audiobook options in objects

I agree that product alone can be used to mix content and carrier. I'm really suggesting that it can't do as good a job alone as can be achieved via amalgamation.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 9, 2013, at 12:41 PM, "Karen Coyle" <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:

> 
> On 2/9/13 8:05 AM, Young,Jeff (OR) wrote:
>> Owen,
>> 
>> I think you're on the right track.
>> 
>> I would argue that schema:CreativeWork should be used to represent
>> "content" and schema:Product be used to represent "carrier". FRBR
>> Manifestation is then an amalgamation of schema:CreativeWork and
>> schema:ProductModel. FRBR Item would be schema:CreativeWork and
>> schema:IndividualProduct. Our notion of "Holding" would be
>> schema:creativeWork and schema:SomeProducts.
> 
> However, I asked Martin Hepp off-list about GoodRelations "product", and he replied that "product" mixes content and carrier. So although the suggested differentiation between CreativeWork and Product is logical, it does not seem to be consistent with current practice in schema.org or GoodRelations.
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:42 AM, "Owen Stephens" <owen@ostephens.com
>> <mailto:owen@ostephens.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Re: audiobook options in objects
>>> 
>>> Looking at this again I think what I feel most unhappy with the
>>> modelling I've done is:
>>> 
>>> A) It treats something that is 16 CDs as essentially a single thing
>>> (says its a cd containing a 22hr CDDA encoded audio object
> 
> We need "extent". schema.org/Book has "number of pages" - eventually we'll also need "number of volumes" "number of CDs" "number of maps" etc. It' might be better just to go with "extent". I'm not sure if it fits into CreativeWork itself, however, even though most creative works will have an extent. In this case, you have two relevant extents:
> - 22 hours
> - 18 CDs
> 
> As in library cataloging, some extents are assumed, such as "1 volume" for a Book, unless noted otherwise.
> 
>>> 
>>> B) It conflates the format (cd) with the creative work. This would
>>> make it awkward to code a page which listed the work then multiple
>>> access options (audio cd, mp3 on physical media, mp3 for download, ogg
>>> vorbis for download etc)
> 
> 
> I think it's ok to conflate the CD with the creative work when the CD has been cataloged separately,or when the library only has that particular format. Otherwise we have to posit a display that has knowledge of Works and Manifestations, which isn't the current case. This is the very difficult "multiple versions" problem that we struggled with throughout the nineties in library cataloging, and then gave up on, but that FRBR attempts to solve. (BIBFRAME seems to be having a similar struggle.) This means that library data (and pages) currently repeat a bibliographic description for each different format. The library databases, until they would convert to a FRBR-ish or BIBFRAME-ish data format, still have separate library records for different formats, although occasionally an online version is included in an 856 URL, even though the record is for the hard copy. (In that case you often do not know that the record includes a digital format, although a human reader can surmise it from the display.) I assume the treatment in microdata would follow this pattern because this is the data that will be marked up. Where we will go in the future to make it possible to display a Work and all of its Expressions and Manifestations isn't at all clear to me, so it's hard to plan for it in schema.org.
> 
> Out of curiosity, I looked at this Amazon page for Dune[1]. It lists all of the different formats, each with a price. I don't see microdata on that page, but I assume that each of these would be an Offer. Your example just has a single offer. The Amazon page doesn't do the "offer" box with just one offer [2]. I think this is fine. Perhaps Manifestations will be "formats" and Items will be "offers" when we have our data FRBR-ized, and systems can manage single formats and single offers either differently or the same as multiple ones.
> 
> kc
> 
> [1] http://www.amazon.com/Dune-40th-Anniversary-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441013597/

> [2] http://www.amazon.com/Mumfords-Reception-German-Translation-Criticism/dp/0819195642/

> 
>>> 
>>> If it were just multiple formats for download you could do this
>>> adequately using audioObject - but the mix in of physical media stops
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> Being able to this kind of listing seems pretty fundamental - whether
>>> for a library or a store.
>>> 
>>> It might be that this can be achieved by mixing in a
>>> schema.org/product? <http://schema.org/product?> This would make more
>>> sense - the cd set is a product, as is the physical media+mp3, as is
>>> the mp3 for download.
>>> 
>>> However not quite sure how to model this right now.
>>> 
>>> Does my concern make sense?
>>> Anyone want to suggest how product would interact here?
>>> 
>>> I think I'm sticking to a pretty straightforward real world scenario
>>> here not just dreaming up an abstract concern?
>>> 
>>> Owen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2013, at 03:57, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net
>>> <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Great, owen. I'll work on proposal 2 since that seems to be the
>>> mostly likely one in my set. I'm not clear about repetition of
>>> property names in schema.org <http://schema.org> -- is it legit to
>>> have two schemas that both have a property "isbn"? I believe this was
>>> discussed either here or on the public-vocab list, and I was left with
>>> the impression that the URI pattern is
>>> >
>>> > http://schema.org/[property]
>>> >
>>> > and not
>>> >
>>> > http://schema.org/Book/[property]
>>> > http://schema.org/Audiobook/[property]
>>> >
>>> > Can anyone confirm? Because that would knock out a couple of the
>>> options that are currently on the page.
>>> >
>>> > kc
>>> >
>>> > On 2/8/13 3:46 PM, Owen Stephens wrote:
>>> >> OK - I've given markup a go for Proposal 5 - not done this before
>>> so likely be errors/misconceptions on my part so anyone should feel
>>> free to chip in and improve.
>>> >> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Object_Types#Proposal_5

>>> >> Owen
>>> >>
>>> >> Owen Stephens
>>> >> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>> >> Web: http://www.ostephens.com

>>> >> Email: owen@ostephens.com <mailto:owen@ostephens.com>
>>> >> Telephone: 0121 288 6936
>>> >>
>>> >> On 8 Feb 2013, at 18:01, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@KCOYLE.NET
>>> <mailto:kcoyle@KCOYLE.NET>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> So many choices! :-) Should the next step be to try to encode a
>>> few items and see how it works?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Also, the creativeWork "encoding" is *supposed* to be of type
>>> MediaObject. Does that make a difference?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> kc
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 2/8/13 7:46 AM, Owen Stephens wrote:
>>> >>>> Hi Karen,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I'm inclined to ignore that definition of Media Object :) There
>>> is no reason why an Audio-book shouldn't be embedded in a webpage so I
>>> wouldn't want to exclude this either)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I think you could make use of the Creative Work property
>>> "encoding" rather than making it a type of Media Object - which allows
>>> some split of content and carrier? (not wishing to resurrect that
>>> discussion!)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> This would allow:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Proposal
>>> >>>> Thing > CreativeWork > Audiobook
>>> >>>> Thing > CreativeWork > Book > Audiobook
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> New properties for audiobook type
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>    • readBy -- expected type: Person
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Properties likely to be used from Book
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>    • bookEdition (for abridgement note)
>>> >>>>    • isbn
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> With a separate Media Object to be created and referenced using
>>> 'encoding' property from CreativeWork?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I've added as Proposal 4
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Owen
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Owen Stephens
>>> >>>> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>> >>>> Web: http://www.ostephens.com

>>> >>>> Email: owen@ostephens.com <mailto:owen@ostephens.com>
>>> >>>> Telephone: 0121 288 6936
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 8 Feb 2013, at 15:23, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net
>>> <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> I wrote up three options for audiobook:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Object_Types#AudioBook

>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> A key question here is whether we can re-use MediaObject, since
>>> it is defined as being media embedded in a web page.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> kc
>>> >>>>> --
>>> >>>>> Karen Coyle
>>> >>>>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net> http://kcoyle.net

>>> >>>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>> >>>>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>> >>>>> skype: kcoylenet
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Karen Coyle
>>> >>> kcoyle@kcoyle.net <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net> http://kcoyle.net

>>> >>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>> >>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>> >>> skype: kcoylenet
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Karen Coyle
>>> > kcoyle@kcoyle.net <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net> http://kcoyle.net

>>> > ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>> > m: 1-510-435-8234
>>> > skype: kcoylenet
>>> >
> 
> -- 
> Karen Coyle
> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net

> ph: 1-510-540-7596
> m: 1-510-435-8234
> skype: kcoylenet
> 
>

Received on Saturday, 9 February 2013 17:54:07 UTC