RE: schema-course-extend: credential or award offered through course. from Alan Paull on 2016-06-20 (public-schema-course-extend@w3.org from June 2016)

From: Alan Paull <alan@alanpaull.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:17:24 +0000
To: Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com>, Steve Midgley <steve@learningtapestry.com>
CC: "public-schema-course-extend@w3.org" <public-schema-course-extend@w3.org>
Message-ID: <640AC2272A48D648A4E7996DC559C65881527F86@exch-d01m01.email.local>
This is one of the reasons why I suggested that limiting this to qualifications as a first step was A Good Thing.
Alan

From: Wes Turner [mailto:wes.turner@gmail.com]
Sent: 20 June 2016 12:12
To: Steve Midgley <steve@learningtapestry.com>
Cc: public-schema-course-extend@w3.org
Subject: Re: schema-course-extend: credential or award offered through course.

- P: credential
  - d:
  - r: {Credential, CredentialInstance}

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 6:11 AM, Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com<mailto:wes.turner@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Steve Midgley <steve@learningtapestry.com<mailto:steve@learningtapestry.com>> wrote:

I agree that credential has many meanings across industries. I agree we should try to find a term that unambiguously locates this credential as educational. So, being a frequent simpleton, I'll suggest "educationalCredential"
I'd lean toward a generic credential property with a range of CredentialInstance.

Given that:

+ Credential > Certification
+ There are Certification s
+ There are instances of a given Certification
   + CredentialInstance.credential = Credential(name="RHCE")

Is something like RHCE or A+ an *educational* Credential,
or just a regular Credential?


+ CredentialInstance.credential = Credential > OpenBadge(name="Citizenship in the Community")

If I earn an OpenBadge Merit Badge, is that an educationalCredential?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_badge_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)#Current_merit_badges

Or would educationalCredential only be for a Degree (as earned from a DegreeProgram)?
- In that case, would it then be degreeCredential?

If it becomes the case that e.g. a Credential > OpenBadge is earned per-course,
there may be a number of .credential s listed indeed.
- IIUC correctly, educationalCredential could be accomplished with a WHERE clause like (WHERE credType IN list_of_academic_credential_types)
  - list_of_academic_credential_types = enumerated set of qualifying Enumerations

(What I should've asked first:)
What would be the domain and range (d: r:) of an educationalCredential property?

- P: educationalCredential
  - d:
  - r:


It seems like that would address most concerns, and doesn't change or shade the meaning of the term for educational use, as best as I can see.. Thoughts?

Steve

>>

Just a comment on  the term “grantsCredential”







Agree that “grants” is a problem. “Related” is better, but loses the

semantics. Courses can result in a credential, be evidence for a

credential, be required for a credential etc. Having some variety of ways

to relate a course to a credential would be more complex but might be

useful.











Robby Robson





*Eduworks*robby.robson@eduworks.com<mailto:*Eduworks*robby.robson@eduworks.com?Subject=RE%3A%20schema-course-extend%3A%20credential%20or%20award%20offered%20through%20course..&In-Reply-To=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E&References=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E>











*From:* Phil Barker [mailto:phil.barker@hw.ac.uk<mailto:phil.barker@hw.ac.uk?Subject=RE%3A%20schema-course-extend%3A%20credential%20or%20award%20offered%20through%20course.&In-Reply-To=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E&References=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E>]

*Sent:* Thursday, June 16, 2016 7:11 AM

*To:* Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com<mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com?Subject=RE%3A%20schema-course-extend%3A%20credential%20or%20award%20offered%20through%20course.&In-Reply-To=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E&References=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E>>

*Cc:* public-schema-course-extend@w3.org<mailto:public-schema-course-extend@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20schema-course-extend%3A%20credential%20or%20award%20offered%20through%20course.&In-Reply-To=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E&References=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E>

*Subject:* Re: schema-course-extend: credential or award offered through

course.















On 16/06/2016 10:10, Richard Wallis wrote:



Seeing the somewhat involved discussion around the description of

credentials I envisage either the overall Course proposal (V1.0) being

delayed by it or; the credential proposals not being addressed fully.







I agree.





Pragmatically I propose that initially the property is defined with a

rangeIncludes of Text & URL.  This will provide the initial ability to at

least reference credentials.  Following on, a full broad discussion will

result in a well thought through proposal for a new Credential [or

alternatively named] Type.  Part of that proposal being to extend the range

of the Course property to include this new type.







Why URL rather than Thing? I would quite like to be able to provide a name

and URL.  Also, I don't like the semantics of implying that the student

will get a URL at the end of the course!





As to the currently proposed Course property name ‘grantsCredential’, we

still have the question of if ‘credential’ is a good term.  Even if we

agree it is, I have a concern about ‘grants’.   The Course does not *grant* a

qualification, that is done by an organisation - completing/passing the

course leads to the granting of the associated qualification.





Yes, I see your point.



Phil









~Richard.





Richard Wallis



Founder, Data Liberate



http://dataliberate.com<http://dataliberate.com/>



Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis




Twitter: @rjw







On 16 June 2016 at 09:40, Phil Barker <phil.barker@hw.ac.uk<mailto:phil.barker@hw.ac.uk?Subject=RE%3A%20schema-course-extend%3A%20credential%20or%20award%20offered%20through%20course.&In-Reply-To=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E&References=%3C2932998b86978e2de38a2030513c60a5%40mail.gmail.com%3E>> wrote:





Hello all, [apologies if you receive this twice, the message I sent

yesterday seems to have disappeared]



We have a use case for the schema course extension that user should be able

to find a course that offers a qualification the searcher would like to

acquire hence a requirement that it must be able to identify the

qualification offered to those completing a course, see

http://bit.ly/sce-us2 .



The current proposal has a grantsCredential property of Course with

expected (but undefined) type of Credential see,

http://course.schema-course-extend.appspot.com/grantsCredential




There has been quite an involved discussion on github over the last few

weeks around how to describe credentials, starting at

https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/195#issuecomment-220588244


The modelling of qualifications, awards, credentials clearly goes beyond

the modelling of courses and is being addressed else where (see the git hub

conversation for references to Credential Transparency Initiative,

OpenBadges, blockchain in credentialling etc.)



I would like to gauge opinion on two issues:

1. the name credential is proving problematic as to many it associates with

security credential, cryptography, etc. It would be useful to find an

alternative.



2. What is the minimum that we need to do in order to deal with the link

from Courses to credential/qualification/award offered in such a way that

it meets our use case and can be picked up by those looking specifically at

educational credentials.



Bear in mind Richard Wallis's advice of last week concerning "what should

be in Course 1.0" where he advises that fine detail be left for future

refinements.

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schema-course-extend/2016Jun/0015.html




I am hoping that the answer is something like a property of course called

something like grantsCredential or offersEducationalAward which has an

expected type text or CreativeWork or a named but otherwise empty subtype

of CreativeWork.





Phil





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Phil Barker           @philbarker

LRMI, Cetis, ICBL     http://people.pjjk.net/phil


Heriot-Watt University



Ubuntu: http://xkcd.com/456/


   not so much an operating system as a learning opportunity.











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Phil Barker           @philbarker



LRMI, Cetis, ICBL     http://people.pjjk.net/phil




Heriot-Watt University







Workflow: http://www.icbl.hw.ac.uk/~philb/workflow/
Received on Monday, 20 June 2016 11:28:22 UTC