- From: Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
- Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 21:05:55 +1000
- To: public-rww <public-rww@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAM1Sok3NYy0EtU7wN08+QdWoLSgT2xfU_Jw4LcKk38ZgDvMhkw@mail.gmail.com>
I'm quite concerned about an underlying 'ideology' linked problem. Therein, whilst i'm replying to the JSON-LD / SchemaOrg linked notes; its kinda a different branch, and i guess, the fundamental link back to the parent threads - is about ideology linked to the affordances provided to man-kind as a competitively better solution for 'identity' management, storage, growth, thrivability, protection and permissions-set around usability / productivity, etc. FWIW: I'm trying to write something about the concerns that i have about the current position atm vs. alternatives (think VHS vs. Betamax, at a minimum, if it were 'cakes' of 'houses', there's alot more than 2 choices) - which is linked to this work; but not expressly (ie: its local innovation infrastructure work, that i'm hoping will provide a conduit to support growth of 'reality check tech'), and the notes about our international stability / thrivability, as may be brought about via defence activities linked to a present day definition of 'cyber' and linked issues (ie: [1][2]) vs. some sort of alternative infrastructure, truth telling infrastructure, cyber peace fair (fair dealings) infrastructure - as required to support 'rule of law', etc... perhaps the problem or 'fear' some may have; links to the way ideology has been expressed in development of RDF solutions, from the early beginnings of it[3]... in consideration for the sorts of things that have not been achieved, and the sorts of issues that are prolific, but not well considered...? (bigger than the implications of toilet-paper shortages, etc.)... in anycase; few thoughts for the list. Doesn't 'notation3'[4] incorporate logic; in a manner that other serialisations 'don't do, so well'? when searching for a comparison table of serialisations, i also found this s-rdf[5] thing... I have an old (long) document, that i was reviewing recently; that i called Artificium Corpora et Sapientiae Universitas XXI --> A non-linear knowledge framework for the electromagnetic operation of Human Experience I won't post long documents, i understand that's often considered counter-productive. Yet, perhaps, figuring out the objective functionality requirements / intended outcomes - sought to be brought about by producing a solution (whether it uses new tools, or old ones - with better documentation?) could be a useful starting point? IMO: the 'prosthetic extensions of self' (ie: via operating AI agents) need to be 'dignity enhancing'... but therein, is a reference back to that 'ideological' problem... If the way the web now functions; was considered in terms of a tender response, where there are different 'requirements' to which 'platforms' (or tools) are assessed on a comply / non-comply / partially comply basis - what are those requirements? how do they support common-legitamacy between agents? do different classes of agents deserve differentiated considerations? or would that be considered discriminatory? should a software agent have the same rights as an agent that's built upon an ideology of 'corporate personhood' which is expected to have the same rights as a 'natural person' both in the same juristiction or elsewhere in the world? how do these sorts of decisions impact 'reality check tech' or have the effect, of achieving a result that actually does the opposite? Therein - whilst it seems clear that JSON[-ld] is working well for legal personalities (companies); do natural actors need a serialisation method, that better supports 'logic'? is it a serialisation method issue - or an ideology issue - which groups attached to which serialisation methods have most progressed which ideologies? are they coherant or functionally dissociative? i made some diagrams (in the interests of having quick and simple reference points)[6] Whilst authored via a 'flat medium', the entity diagram[7] (that i've also attached for archive purposes); made an attempt to provide a 'illustrative' framework, to consider the different 'spheres' or 'layers' that have an interference pattern with; how it is '(human) identity fabric' apparatus 'kinda' functions, on a multi-dimensional level; taking into consideration the dynamic nature (ie: causality linked stuff); associated between natural world actors, knowledge / information (informatics), entity or 'agent' endification; and per the 'legend' (colour coded); inter-woven relationships (that are in-turn described in connection to a particular method, that's been 'work in progress', but often attributed elsewhere - so challenging at a personal health level, to spend much time doing...). The 'quantum mechanical' implications of poor design on consciousness;and its impact on 'observers' is becoming increasingly supported by others. There / thereafter, notes made about the 'false dichotomy'[8] (also attached - links to considerations had about 'binary-isms' that are fundamentally false in 'nature', ie: a person must eat a cow in one bite unless they want to starve to death - the point being, decision trees that infer poor behaviours as justifiable or constructively useful method for gainful gamification, etc.). Which then links to the 'knowledge clouds' works[9][10] (image also attached), which has been thought to be dependent upon 'permissive commons' stuff, which is described (badly?) in articles i've made public on medium[11]... Attached also is a diagram / concept thing (draft) about 'subversionOfCommunications'.... Herein; overall, the point being, if we are to live in an inter-national environment built upon an infrastructure that PEACEFULLY supports humanitarian (biosphere) growth; upon the context of 'rule of law', and other values that are inscribed in various human rights / UN charters, declarations, treaties, etc... that is - if we are to build an infrastructure that is intended to support those values, and not pervert them; then, there's a fundamental requirement to support 'common sense' in relation to 'rules' (which are often very old); responsibilities, consequences and ability to maintain those values via 'agents' that have a capacity to inspect and judge in a manner that should at times result in penalties; but they also need to function in a manner that's intentionally designed not to be easily subjectable to getting 'gamed' for 'profit'. IE: a circumstance where someone may be slandered and/or severely injured, for purposes that are fundamentally commercial in nature - whereby the only available option should that 'agent' / person seek to exist - be to 'freely' (or provide in an unencumbered manner) all of that persons underlying work to those linked with an attacker, without any form of encumbrance - as to seek 'peace' (or survivability) from an attacker who knowingly 'gamed' the system, for commercial gains. If the platform frameworks itself; are bonded to provenance / the ability to present history of a scope of work / thing / field of endeavour (etc.); then, that sort of attack vector won't so easily 'yield' a positive economic result (motivation) via temporal gamification; therein - suggestion / consideration is; perhaps its best to set-out the sorts of objective purposes that are sought to be achieved... FWIW - i started to (poorly) define some ontological work examples (some time ago)[12] which is incomplete and not usable, as i didn't want to be 'the purpose' who was the first person to think about human rights in relation to AI and produce a functional framework; but rather, do enough, to demonstrate... Its the sort of thing that's been set aside by others... certainly, i haven't seen that sort of infrastructure operating and/or being employed by major silos to support a functional performance assessment / implication framework, in association to any works said to be about addressing 'fake news' or 'ethical AI' or similar... etc... Would a Temporal Web solution be a framework that better supports the comfort of consumers whose environment are distorted by the operation of it; or is it about 'reality check tech'? what are the defined objectives?? i have some - but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the same as the agents involved in this group... Cheers, Timothy Holborn. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6799959745714372608/ [2] https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/government-needs-to-ensure-australias-digital-sovereignty/ [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/daml+oil-reference/ [4 ] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation3 [5] https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02390598/file/S-RDF%3A_A_new_RDF_Serialization_Format_for_better_Storage_without_losing_Human_Readability.pdf [6] https://medium.com/webcivics/inforgs-the-collective-info-sphere-67a660516cfd [7] https://miro.medium.com/max/4634/1*yR3LJBkX1hkymsDlBDqEhQ.png [8] https://miro.medium.com/max/3332/1*5KzkYHRy0B_OKP3aagsqhg.png [9] https://miro.medium.com/max/2578/1*ANLhq8VK4RlVEnMOsB-Y6w.png [10] https://medium.com/webcivics/knowledge-clouds-f3f5ef1990d9 [11] https://medium.com/webcivics/humancentricwebecosystems/home [12] https://github.com/WebCivics/ontologies On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 20:01, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 02:24, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> > wrote: > >> On 5/15/21 6:55 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, 16 May 2021 at 00:09, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 5/15/21 5:21 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 18:14, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 5/14/21 3:26 PM, Timothy Holborn wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry, re: clarifications, >>>> >>>> What did it do back in ~2011/2 when I first installed it? (Vs. now?). I >>>> can pull the dates, but you likely have them in your licensing server?? I >>>> was trying to do a POC via building a heritage capability as an initial >>>> usecase, at the time.... (supporting a Hysterical/ historical society)... >>>> >>>> Does it have more functionality since then? I assumed the answer was >>>> "yes" particularly given the status of "web payments" (pre credentials), >>>> way back then (before I ended up on the lists, something, I didn't consider >>>> would ever happen in my life, at the time)... >>>> >>>> Limitations linked to creating a knowledge banking framework. I started >>>> concepts in 2000 ("information bank" or ibank) which progressed to >>>> "knowledge banking" circa 2011/2012 after doing some work "updating" old >>>> work, from mid 2010 (indigenous application started 2009/10).. >>>> >>>> I think you're first "dataspaces" demo was 2007??? V.interested in >>>> "temporal web" / provenance solutions.... >>>> >>>> Dignity enhancing web (vs. web slavery, or worse). >>>> >>>> Timothy Holborn. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Timothy, >>>> >>>> Regarding Identity, Identification, Authentication, and Authorization >>>> nothing has changed in Virtuoso. >>>> >>>> What has changed outside Virtuoso, via complimentary tools and services >>>> that we provide are as follows: >>>> >>>> [1] Browser Extensions for creating Private Keys, X.509 Certificates, >>>> Identifiers (WebIDs and NetIDs), and associated Profile Docs -- basically, >>>> killing the headache left by predictable demise of <keygen/> >>>> >>>> [2] Setting up WebID-TLS + Delegation from a Browser so that the whole >>>> thing "just works" and users aren't exposed to what they may perceive as >>>> complexity re entity relationship type (and associated semantics) >>>> triangulation >>>> >>>> The implications of the above are as follows, using a Chromium or >>>> Mozilla browser: >>>> >>>> [1] You can create credentials using your browser that are stored to an >>>> OS-provided Keystore (e.g., macOS Keychain) or PKCS#12 file >>>> >>>> [2] You can write data to a Data Space (e.g., OpenLink Data Spaces or >>>> Solid Pod) subject to ACLs using WebID-TLS (with Delegation if so desired >>>> i.e., kill off the UI/UX issues associated with browser restarts since >>>> Person and their User Agents have distinguished, but related identity) >>>> >>>> >>>> Tools that demonstrate these capabilities include: >>>> >>>> [1] YouID <http://youid.openlinksw.com/> >>>> >>>> [2] OpenLink Structured Data Sniffer >>>> >>>> <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/openlink-structured-data/egdaiaihbdoiibopledjahjaihbmjhdj?hl=en> >>>> >>>> [3] OpenLink Structured Data Sniffer for Mozilla >>>> <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/openlink-structured-data-sniff/> >>>> >>>> As for Virtuoso, it hasn't changed bar adding support for WebID-OIDC >>>> which enables compatibility with Solid Pods for read-write operations via >>>> WebDAV/LDP mounting functionality etc.. >>>> >>>> Long story short, we are still waiting for everyone to catch up :) >>>> >>> >>> OpenLink certainly has been ahead of the curve >>> >>> I'm reminded of OSDB: https://osdb.openlinksw.com/osdb >>> >>> In particular this image: >>> >>> https://osdb.openlinksw.com/img/dastklohq01y.gif >>> >>> This is the kind of thing I envisage as a next iteration of the read >>> write web >>> >>> The idea here being that each of those modular agents are moving in time >>> to a certain rhythm >>> >>> I dont think we can easily make something like in that diagram today, >>> aside from how the web already operates. You visit a page, you might tweet >>> it, or share it, it gets indexed by a search engine etc. Yes, it one way, >>> but alot of centralization build in there >>> >>> What if the web had a more temporal set of heart beats which the agents >>> could be small, compact, modular, robust. Also finite in nature due to >>> block chains being finite resources. Or as stated in paper trail some >>> teams collaborating or competing in different contests. >>> >>> What is needed? >>> >>> - Tying read write agents to block chains using URIs (so standardize a >>> URI scheme to hook into a block chain) >>> - Ways to create fragments of a block chain that can live as mirrored >>> claims (so some schema) >>> - Ability to traverse chains in type, and data in time >>> - Ability to save the state of the agents, as well as perhaps the logic, >>> the code, the deployment (we have VCS for this) >>> - Ability for state to evolve in time, so watching for changes, for >>> deployments >>> - Ability to identify agents (URIs) and described them (Linked Data) >>> - Ability for agents to interact with one another, read write verbs >>> (e.g. PUT/POST/PATCH) >>> >>> All this can come from leveraging existing timestamp servers, providing >>> a heartbeat for multi agent read write systems, largely gluing together the >>> pieces we already have >>> >>> Perhaps OpenLink can lead the way again here, and we can devise a spec >>> together. The aim is that gif above. What tools can we use to get there? >>> >>> >>> Hi Melvin, >>> >>> As you know, we are always happy to lead by example especially when >>> specs are in place that offer critical foundation for interoperability. >>> Personally, I believe that are a significant number of specs in place, >>> hence our ability to quietly create the OpenLink Structured Data Bot >>> Framework (OSDB). >>> >>> Going forward, we are currently looking at URIs and Blockchains which is >>> an emerging and important frontier as you've already noted in your comments >>> above. >>> >> >> Excellent! >> >> So how advanced is the OSDB? What can it do? I've made a few bots >> before, and perhaps you'll agree with me on this, they are nice enough >> proof of concepts, but they are somewhat toothless. They lack robustness, >> and need maintenance. Can easily be turned on or off, and very much prone >> to race conditions. After all of this, they tend not to be all that useful. >> >> >> OSDB can generate a REST-ful interaction console for any API described >> using the OpenAPI standard or RDF (e.g., Actions described using terms from >> the Schema.org Vocabulary). Naturally, any OSDB instance is a proxy for >> interacting with all the Actions that it has distilled from API >> documentation. >> >> OSDB was developed in anticipation of Siri and friends becomes extensible >> via APIs. For example, simply giving Siri new skills which are basically a >> collection of Actions. >> >> We are still waiting ... >> >> >> >> Let's give a test. Let's say I want to make a simple step counter. It >> hooks into my smart watch. >> >> >> You simply need the counter to be documented using either OpenAPI or RDF, >> that's it. >> >> >> It hooks into my phone pedometer, my treadmill, a bunch of stuff running >> at the same time. >> >> >> Once the step above is completed you can integrate into any device that >> has the notion of Actions and their execution. >> >> >> It then wants to store my data, and ensure that all devices can write to >> the store without conflicts. Also, importantly the store might go down in >> a DB or a pod or git, and it should just be able to come back up elsewhere, >> ditto the bot that is managing all of this. >> >> In your terminology, "it just works". >> >> >> It will "Just Work" if the IoT devices understand Actions distilled from >> API by way of documentation using OpenAPI or RDF (e.g., using terms from >> Schema.org or other vocabs). >> >> >> >> So how close do you think we are to this, with your bots? >> >> >> The "Bot" is OSDB is really about its ability to be integrated into bots >> rather than being a bot itself per se.. It is a Bot capability enhancer, so >> to speak. >> >> >> This is the style of thing I'd like to spec with a supra operating system >> that offers web scale semaphores. That's what binding to a time stamp >> server gives you. >> >> So, what's required to do this? >> >> >> So-called Smart Agents like Siri, Alexa, Google etc.. being extensible >> using a common method e.g., the OpenAPI or RDF standards. This hasn't >> happened yet, unfortunately. We even assumed the API Economy folks >> (typically anti RDF) would at least use OpenAPI (their own spec) but that >> hasn't happened either :( >> > > There are a lot of anti RDF folks out there. We've always tried to > encourage (semantic) web standards and RDF in this group. There are more > standards now emerging around JSON(-LD) and schema.org is becoming a de > facto standard for the semantic web > > Regarding Smart Agents instead of massive centralized personal assistants, > why dont we aim to create more decentralized and distributed personal > agents with declarative data store state machines which operate on via > standards (perhaps ones we create). > > Working with "small data" rather than "big data" > > But working together > > Dont know much about OpenAPI, would it be a good inspiration for a spec? > >> >> Same stuff we've always done, link from one URI / UUID to another. And >> have the logic respect that. So, basically middleware stuff, bread and >> butter for openlink! >> >> >> Yep! >> >> >> Links: >> >> >> [1] https://spec.openapis.org/oas/v3.1.0 -- OpenAPI >> >> >> Kingsley >> >> >> >>> Kingsley >>> >>> >>> >>>> Kingsley >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 15 May 2021, 5:07 am Kingsley Idehen, <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 5/14/21 1:07 PM, Timothy Holborn wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Overall; the underlying intent; was to create complex AUTH / >>>>> Endification / Identification fabric capabilities; that could in-turn, >>>>> support complex (hyper-private) semantics, that could only be brought about >>>>> post-technological growth; with support of political will... i"m not sure >>>>> that' going to happen (in the western world, first or at all); but, i >>>>> wanted to make a note that the examples provided by openlink software >>>>> (virtuoso) or Project Hydra (samvera nowadays?) didn't have enough >>>>> functionality back in 2011/2; as such, i sought to improve it, to support - >>>>> human beings, unto 'rule of law', for a moral economy, etc... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Timothy, >>>>> >>>>> To be clear: >>>>> >>>>> OpenLink Virtuoso <https://virtuoso.openlinksw.com> is a platform >>>>> that includes a multi-protocol authentication layer. One of the many >>>>> supported protocols is WebID-TLS. We also support NetID-TLS which is >>>>> basically WebID-TLS decoupled from http: scheme URIs e.g., it supports >>>>> ldap: scheme URIs. >>>>> >>>>> Authorization wise, our technology is driven 100% by RDF >>>>> sentences/statements (informed by terms from relevant ontologies). >>>>> >>>>> I don't see limitations in RDF that aren't surmounted by the use of >>>>> SPARQL as a Rules Language (like Datalog back in the day) re authorization >>>>> via access controls. >>>>> >>>>> With the clarifications above outlined, what limitation are you >>>>> speaking about? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Kingsley Idehen >>>>> Founder & CEO >>>>> OpenLink Software >>>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com >>>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com >>>>> Weblogs (Blogs): >>>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog >>>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog >>>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers >>>>> >>>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs): >>>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen >>>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ >>>>> http://kidehen.blogspot.com >>>>> >>>>> Profile Pages: >>>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ >>>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen >>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen >>>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about >>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen >>>>> >>>>> Web Identities (WebID): >>>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i >>>>> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Kingsley Idehen >>>> Founder & CEO >>>> OpenLink Software >>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com >>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com >>>> Weblogs (Blogs): >>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog >>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog >>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers >>>> >>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs): >>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen >>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ >>>> http://kidehen.blogspot.com >>>> >>>> Profile Pages: >>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ >>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen >>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen >>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about >>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen >>>> >>>> Web Identities (WebID): >>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i >>>> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Kingsley Idehen >>> Founder & CEO >>> OpenLink Software >>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com >>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com >>> Weblogs (Blogs): >>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog >>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog >>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers >>> >>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs): >>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen >>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ >>> http://kidehen.blogspot.com >>> >>> Profile Pages: >>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ >>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen >>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen >>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about >>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen >>> >>> Web Identities (WebID): >>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i >>> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this >>> >>> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Kingsley Idehen >> Founder & CEO >> OpenLink Software >> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com >> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com >> Weblogs (Blogs): >> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog >> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog >> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers >> >> Personal Weblogs (Blogs): >> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen >> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ >> http://kidehen.blogspot.com >> >> Profile Pages: >> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ >> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen >> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen >> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about >> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen >> >> Web Identities (WebID): >> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i >> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this >> >>
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Received on Monday, 17 May 2021 11:06:53 UTC