W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rww@w3.org > April 2021

Re: Temporal Stack

From: Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 22:37:15 +1000
Message-ID: <CAM1Sok1aOzDUTvkQYqCcTrzJw4L4ZHjZWFGvRzRCDs1ROezhuA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>, Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com>
Cc: public-rww <public-rww@w3.org>
Heya,

(I note the other posts by Sebastian,  trying to minimise my response.)

I find the HTTP tags useful.  examples being:
http://mediaprophet.org/ux_KB/page4115294.html#0 & http://dev.webcivics.org/
(use dummy data to get past the form, and note, melvin did something
similar prior to my producing an example)...

note also: drawing (and comments):
https://twitter.com/SailingDigital/status/1383022781722361862

I find in portals, the timestamps provided change.  in one case, i made a
video first published christmas day 2016 https://2017.trustfactory.org/
(that's what i did on that day) and as a consequence of my changing the
publishing settings on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9vROTibKiE
it now gives a date of 2020.

these sorts of 'decisions' have impacts that relate to intellectual
property & law. (alongside dignity and other 'human' factors, etc.)



On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 at 23:50, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 at 13:37, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> had a think.  thought i'd post it.
>>
>> IMO there's cause to build into WWW / HTTP a method to support temporal
>> lookups, other than simply using archive.org.   i imagine this would
>> eventually require ICANN, IETF (etc) support; amongst other implications.
>>
>> The functional outcome would be an ability to look up a page at a
>> particular date.   This may involve differences in who owned the domain
>> name at that time (vs. who may own it later on), amongst many other
>> implications.  There would have to be a 'format' of 'standards' around how
>> to achieve it, for long-term support.
>>
>> Foundational requirements, prior to more easily engaging CMS providers
>> such as Wordpress / automattic, drupal, etc.  would be to define a simple
>> concept that could be built upon to do it.  I imagine it may take some
>> years to do, and i'm not entirely sure i'm up for it - historically no
>> funding for work by civics persons (civilians, working independent of
>> contract / employment revenue) for doing W3C works; maybe, with new changes
>> that might be reviewed; but regardless,
>>
>> cost of storage, etc. has been dropping.  I'm not sure what the economic
>> model for it would be, but i can think of a variety of ways a solution that
>> attends to the economic implications could be forged.  I also think, an
>> evaluation may lead to an outcome where it's able to be understood how to
>> do it at a lower energy cost than simply employing DHTs / Blockchains
>> ("DLTs"), although the file-system layer may be considered independently,
>> atm, idk; and don't really want to make the point any more complicated than
>> it needs to be for now.
>>
>
I'm very mindful of https://www.google.com/search?q=httpa+filetype%3Apdf
and whilst http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dig.csail.mit.edu/ is really
useful, i'm troubled by whether and/or how people get the acknowledgement
they may deserve; and/or how others are able to find the people, whose
creative minds were most involved in thinking out problems.

therein also; i'm very mindful of your work (melvin) on linked-data based
(low-energy) ledger works.

was your old site: https://web.archive.org/web/2018*/webpayments.org ???  i
can't find it..  maybe i'm wrong?  doesn't appear to be the case, when i
look at old emails...


> A lot depends on the use case
>
> The web as a distributed document system isnt really designed to do time.
> Most people I know that have used web standards to work with time have run
> into varying degrees of complexity issues
>
> You can rely on a trusted third party like archive.org or try and create
> a system where you can ask for older copies of a page, which handles some
> use cases
>
> many years ago, there was an Australian man who claimed he had a
compression method that could get media down to something like 27.6Kbps.
resolution back then was low. lots of implications at the time, most bad.
the 'proof' is apparently
http://web.archive.org/web/20100816065731/http://www.adamsplatform.com.au/Documents/CoreTechnology%20&%20Diagrames/Matlab%20&%20Other%20Data%20Files.zip

but that doesn't exist.

We do rely upon archive.org but there's a bunch of stuff it can't do...  i
also note, the issue becomes more complex (imo) with ontologies. (and dead
links, etc.).


> A block chain, which was originally called a time chain, is designed to
> store small amounts of data as a time series, and if distributed provides
> resilience through replication.  This is generally considered strong enough
> for financial grade transactions without relying on a trusted third party.
> However many such chains are really a "please buy my token" scheme, pitched
> to an unsophisticated user/investor base.
>
> In most cases archive.org or something similar would handle the need to
> time travel through many documents.  Time traveling through a financial
> ledger (to prove there was no fraud) generally requires stronger
> assurances, which is where the security of a block chain comes in
>
> The ability to use a time / block chain to provide assurances about the
> web over time, could have some use cases, when the proof of non tampering
> of the data is important, or when you might want to reconstruct the
> history.  Or if one site goes away you might want a permanent record that
> could be taken forward by another party
>

if there's interest in figuring stuff out, happy to help.  there are
use-cases linked to other fields where reconstruction of a 'view' of
history (re: permissions) does need to be altered (for good purpose) but
this then, goes into the permissions stuff; which also links across to
other stuff.

delete a 'friend', it's not like you never knew them; or that works done
together, was only done by one member and not the other.

domestic (or web) violence relationship, need to change your name; well,
that shouldn't be at the expense of the victim.  the old 'evidence stuff',
should still be stored in a manner useful for a court of law.

laws change?  well, law only applies in the format of how it was described
at the time the alleged offence took place.

https://www.theknightstemplar1119.org/post/the-knights-templar-and-the-founding-of-the-temple-inns


I found the words 'remember all those who have fallen for the greater good'
from: https://www.knights-templars-albion.com/our-oath

links to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Church#1185%E2%80%931307

History  / provenance is important to distinguish good actors, from the bad
ones (who are often professionals in the field of being, a bad actor); and
therein also, who we promote in society to further our interests towards a
world that we want best, for children to thrive within.

Yet therein; the problem most-often is, that when wrongs are committed; its
often about something that's worthless.  The legitimate means to resolve
the problem, in the end, is to prosecute after wealth has been created as a
consequence of works that may relate to behaviours that warrant review by a
court of law.

some cases may incorporate 'lived experiences' or evidence related
materials that extend over decades.

therein some of my considerations noted (although there's much earlier
links / materials i have about it)

https://medium.com/webcivics/permissioned-commons-7fc33a1ce23e
<https://medium.com/webcivics/permissioned-commons-7fc33a1ce23e>
https://medium.com/webcivics/tech-for-permissive-commons-c0961b77249e
<https://medium.com/webcivics/tech-for-permissive-commons-c0961b77249e>



> What would be needed for standardization between a DLT and the web would
> be a bridge layer between the identifiers on the web (in the strongest
> sense URIs), and cryptographic primitives
>
> So it would just be like the regular history, but more trustable.  It
> would be helpful to have a use case for this, if you want standardization
> or someone to build it
>

I think we'd need some 'civic' sponsors to assist with the 'civics'
activity to get it done.  https://digi.vatlib.it/ is an old example of a
'knowledge trust' or 'bank', maybe archive.org is another; but maybe also,
there's a way to build the capability into the web.  much like DNS. perhaps
requiring a specified format (a bit like LTS versions of OSs, etc.).

I'll have a bit more of a think about it; but if its only me thinking this
sort of stuff is important, i don't know how useful time being put towards
solving this problem as part of a future knowledge-fabric, would end-up
with a good outcome.  I do not see the major barriers being technical in
nature, fwiw.  but, i don't see how policy experts could solve it, without
technical experts (who do not have encumbrances via contractual
relationships, ie: for employment, etc.) putting forward the argument, and
thereafter developing it; which is a non-trivial task.

>
>
>>
>> Timothy Holborn
>>
>
working on a thing atm, that's intended to provide a place for people to
tell stories, fiction (or so classified) about how the COVID-19 'pandemic',
how 'it's all going to end'; which i think, means when there's peace,
amongst other factors.  planning on using the old webizen thing to do so.

imo; the outcome, irrespective of what happens between now and then; will
be a knowledge age, figuring out what actually happened in a way that's
stored in a manner that can be accepted as evidence in a court of law; is
going to be part of the outcome, the only thing that's seemingly 'up in the
air' is about permissions. AFAIK.



>
>>
>
Received on Friday, 16 April 2021 12:38:07 UTC

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