See also: IRC log
<csma> item+ Admin
<csma> agendum Admin
<csma> agendum+ Admin
<csma> agendum+ Liaisons
<csma> agendum+ Actions review
<csma> agendum+ Public comments
<csma> agendum+ XML syntax of Import
<csma> agendum+ BLD equality/NAU pb
<csma> agendum+ Implementations
<csma> agendum+ Test cases
<csma> agendum+ AOB (next meeting)
<ChrisW> running late
<ChrisW> be there in a min
<csma> Scribe: Adrian Paschke
<csma> scribenick: AdrianP
<csma> next item
<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/att-0010/RIF-Telecon-8-Dec-2009.htm
<csma> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from December 8
RESOLUTION: Approve minutes from December 8
<csma> RESOLVED: approve minutes from December 8
<csma> next item
csma: alignment of OMG PRR to W3C
RIF
... PRR might reuse the RIF namespace to define conflict
resolution
<Harold> Maybe there is a parallel to entailment regimes: conflict resolution strategies could be located at one point for others to reuse.
<csma> next item
close action-963
<trackbot> ACTION-963 Put BUiltins-String on agenda next time closed
close action-962
<trackbot> ACTION-962 Contact Stella about regenerating XML for BUiltins_string closed
close action-957
<trackbot> ACTION-957 Send cd3 closed
close action-956
<trackbot> ACTION-956 Move hexbinary TC with base64binary closed
close action-954
<trackbot> ACTION-954 Submit implementation report closed
close action-953
<trackbot> ACTION-953 Contact josderoo about implementation report and test case submission for eye closed
close action-950
<trackbot> ACTION-950 Send response cd2 closed
close action-949
<trackbot> ACTION-949 Send response DM3 closed
close action-932
<trackbot> ACTION-932 Send the response to W Laun closed
<csma> next items
<csma> next item
<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Nov/0001.html
csma: we need Jos on the call for this
<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Dec/0006.html
action csma to update public comment list
<trackbot> Created ACTION-964 - Update public comment list [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-01-12].
<csma> next item
<Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/0011.html
Harold: answer to Sandro's
question about active links
... active IRI which needs to be dereferenced
... implied goals are useful, in particular for distributed
rule bases
... second part of this mail is about the syntax
Sandro: need to understand the
semantic difference between both rif:iri and rif:link
... feels to be too heavy weight to use const
csma: Const was defined for rule
Sandro: import is like a built-in
Harold: the IRI in import needs
to be actively dereferenced
... we do not formalize the semantics for dereferencing
Sandro: you don't like a pure IRI?
a pure IRI would violate the syntactic principle of RIF
Harold: if we embedd the IRI directly in the role tag we violate the syntactic design of RIF. So we need a type tag like Const
csma: you would prefer to have Const in profile and location?
Harold: yes, Const of type rif:iri or rif_link
<sandro> PROPOSED: Import's location and profile will be Const of type rif:iri
<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7
<sandro> PROPOSED: Import's location and profile will be Const of type rif:iri (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
also importing RDF and OWL as in SWC uses Const rif:iri
+1
<Harold> +1
<sandro> +1
<mdean> +1
<csma> 0
<ChrisWelty> +1
<sandro> Harold: In the PS, you cannot see the difference. It only shows up in the XML.
<sandro> Gary, do you have a vote?
<Gary> 0
ChrisW: it puts the Const into the domain
Michael: constants and the String URI for importing are different things
<Harold> Outside the context of Import, <Const type="&rif;iri">IRI</Const>
<Harold> and <Const type="&rif;iri">IRI2</Const>
<Harold> are not equal.
<Harold> It is no problem that both could link to the same document within Import.
<ChrisWelty> harold, in BLD consts are not contextual
Harold: what happens in import is outside in the model theory
ChrisW: if you equate two const
IRIs they are equal
... model theory defines the semantics of const and the
semantics of const in import is different
Harold: that why I propose const of type rif:link
Michael: yes, that was ok
<ChrisWelty> i change my vote to abstain
<Harold> My proposal using <Const type="&rif;link">IRI</Const>
<Harold> avoid these questions.
<sandro> I think rif:link raises about 30 more questions that we're not prepared to answer.
<ChrisWelty> that does not avoid it
michael: original proposal was anyURI
Harold: we already have different types of constants
<Harold> My first email had proposed <Link> elements.
<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0056.html
there are LP language which allow to CONSULT distributed knowledge bases
<sandro> <Import location="...." profile="...">
consult behaves like import
<sandro> <Import location="...." profile="...">
Harold: Document can have an base attribute
<Harold> Yes, this would be fully striped.
<sandro> Portland solution: <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
Michael: problem of striping
<Harold> We already have a similar XML attribute in <Document xml:base="http://example.com/people#">.
Sandro: if we do not stripe,
parses needs to know about this exception
... that is why I lean towards using Const
... the other reason is that we might want to import within a
rule
<sandro> sandro: These are fine. The reason I prefer Const type=rif:iri slightly is to avoid the parser having to know about Import.
Harold: that what I mean with implicational goal, called assume
<sandro> Portland solution: <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
Michael: why not <Import location=".." profile=" .. "/>?
<sandro> (Not really recorded, but Chris and Michael sound fairly opposed to the above PROPOSED.)
<ChrisWelty> does the "Portlant solution" have const inside the location?
csma: does not preserve stripping
Harold: like in Const
Sandro: Const has special treatment, since they are a the leafes of the tree
Harold: would introduce a completely new violation
<sandro> PROPOSED: use <Import location=".." profile=" .. "/>
<Harold> +1
<sandro> -0 mostly procedurally, and because it's using attributes for the first time
<MichaelKifer> +1
<Harold> (the second time)
<csma> 0
<Gary> 0
<mdean> 0
<ChrisWelty> 0 really don't care
<sandro> (by procedually, I mean it's very very late to be making this kind of change.)
<Harold> Document(
<Harold> Base(<http://example.com/people#>)
+0 (for more expressive languages we need further types of imports even allowing variables as arguments for meta reasoning)
<Harold> becomes
<Harold> <Document
<Harold> xml:base="http://example.com/people#"
<sandro> (I don't count xml:base as our first attribute)
<csma> RESOLVED: use <Import location='xs:anyURI' profile='xs:anyURI'/> (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
action Harold to change syntax in BLD and FLD
<trackbot> Created ACTION-965 - Change syntax in BLD and FLD [on Harold Boley - due 2010-01-12].
action csma to change syntax in PRD
<trackbot> Created ACTION-966 - Change syntax in PRD [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-01-12].
action josb to change syntax in SWC
<trackbot> Created ACTION-967 - Change syntax in SWC [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2010-01-12].
<Harold> (don't think SWC uses any XML syntax)
<csma> next item
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Mapping_of_the_Rule_Language
Sandro: I'm not okay with the previous resolution, looking at the candidate recommendation there is no Const
Harold: χbld(loc1)
Michael: it is not even defined in this table
Harold: in the earlier table it
is defined
...
http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Mapping_of_the_Condition_Language
<Harold> "unicodestring"^^symspace maps to <Const type="symspace">unicodestring</Const>
<sandro> Portland solution: <Import><location>...</location><profile>...</profile></Import>
Didn't we say that the XML syntax is not fully defined and might change?
<Harold> XSD:
<Harold> <xs:element name="location">
<Harold> <xs:complexType>
<Harold> <xs:sequence>
<Harold> <xs:element name="Const" type="ANYURICONST.type"/> <!-- type="&xs;anyURI" -->
<Harold> </xs:sequence>
<Harold> </xs:complexType>
<Harold> </xs:element>
<sandro> Sandro: I can't think of any way to justify changing from subelements to attributes, in a Candidate Recommendation.
Sandro: How to explain this change to the world?
<Harold> Right now there is an inconsistency between the
<Harold> XSDs of BLD and PRD
<sandro> +1 extend tjhe meeting 15 miniutes
<MichaelKifer> +1
<Harold> +1
+1
<mdean> +1
<csma> RESOLVED: extend by 15mn
<Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Dec/0013.html
Michael: problem is the how the semantics of named arguments is defined
<MichaelKifer> f(a->b c->b) = f(c->d a->b)
Michael: this kind of implicit equality is there even if we remove equality in the head
csma: but it is already there
<Harold> These equalities are implied by our use of bags (multisets) in the semantics.
<Harold> So, this may be fine.
Michael: if we decide to have it, it will force us to change the semantics of named arguments
Harold: we already use bags which implies equality
<MichaelKifer> f(a->b c->b) <-> f(c->d a->b)
Michael: can change the semantics and introduce such tautologies
ChrisW: isn't it easier to remove named arguments
csma: removing named arguments would be a substantial change
Harold: bag implies equations, but they are built-ins equations
Michael: equality in the head was
made at risk because it is hard to implement
... if we allow this implicit equality we have the same
problem
Harold: implementation is to build the normal form, you create a lexiographic ordering
Michael: ok
csma: close the discussion about nau and equality
<Harold> Our special axiomatic unconditional equations (which could be oriented for normalization into canonical forms -- e.g. using the lexicographic order of the argument names).
<Harold> No real problem,
<Harold> because we don't explicitly axiomatize them with Equal.
<Harold> We keep it implicit within what the bags of our semantics mean.
<MichaelKifer> f(a->b c->d) = f(c->d a->b)
csma: already written the
arguments are an unordered set
... already written in the spec that the arguments are an
unordered set
UNDO; RESOLVED: use <Import location='xs:anyURI' profile='xs:anyURI'/> (this overturns a previous resolution, http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-04-16#resolution_7 )
<csma> PROPOSED: undo previous resolution
<sandro> +1
<ChrisWelty> +1
<Harold> +1
+1
<csma> +1
<mdean> +1
<MichaelKifer> +1
<ChrisWelty> PROPOSED: Exercise every day
<sandro> csma: typical SHORT LIVED new years resolution: 10 minutes.
csma: next meeting Jan, 19th
<csma> Next meeting 19 January
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Adrian Paschke Found ScribeNick: AdrianP WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. Default Present: Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +49.08.aabb, Mike_Dean, csma, AdrianP, ChrisWelty, MichaelKifer, Gary Present: Sandro Harold Stella_Mitchell +49.08.aabb Mike_Dean csma AdrianP ChrisWelty MichaelKifer Gary Regrets: LeoraMorgenstern JosDeBruijn HassanAitKaci Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0000.html Got date from IRC log name: 05 Jan 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05-rif-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]