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RDFa TF minutes, 2009-11-12

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:40:51 +0100
Message-ID: <4AFC56B3.80108@w3.org>
To: W3C RDFa task force <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Here are today's minutes:

http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html

Text version below.

Cheers

Ivan

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                       RDFa in XHTML Task Force

12 Nov 2009

   Agenda:
   [2]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009No
   v/0032.html

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Nov/0032.html

   Previous: [3]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html

   See also: [4]IRC log

      [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck, Ivan Herman, Shane McCarron,
          Steven Pemberton

   Regrets
          Ben Adida

   Chair
          Manu Sporny

   Scribe
          Manu Sporny

Contents

     * [5]Topics
         1. [6]Action Items
         2. [7]RDFa WG charter updates
         3. [8]URIs in @rel, @rev, @property, @typeof and @datatype
         4. [9]Triggering experimental behavior
         5. [10]Test Case 140
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Action Items

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to update the charter to talk about RDFa API
   [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [DONE]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via
   mailing list [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   Manu: any additions/changes to agenda?

   <Steven> Nothing from me.

   Manu: We had discussed RDFa API last week, any input Mark, Steven?

   Mark: Some input - there are "Storage APIs" in Prototype, mootols,
   etc. They allow you to store name-value pairs.
   ... Little storage packets at level of element. We should look at
   all of the APIs - the foundations... it would be good if the thing
   we came up with extended what developers are already working with.
   ... We may look at looking at the "name" in the name-value pair as a
   full URI....
   ... We should do it in such a way as to get it to fit with present
   tools.

   Ivan: We agreed that RDFa API is a part of the charter...
   ... We also want to say we will look at a more general case, will
   most probably publish a W3C NOTE on the issue, and we /may/ go
   beyond that.
   ... So, what you said Mark, is in line with what we discussed.
   ... We try to make the distinction that we don't have the obligation
   to produce an TripleStore API.

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via
   mailing list [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   <Steven> I approve test #142

   Shane: You raised an issue about TC 140 and why it shouldn't
   generate a triple.

   Manu: Adding to agenda, review TC140

   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded
   in [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in
   RDFa WG. [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   Manu: Any ideas on who we'd like to invite? Browser vendors?

   Mark: We may want to discuss this with the browser vendors because
   we haven't been focusing on that in the past.

   Steven: It would be good to get browser vendors involved.
   ... This could be of interest to browser vendors as semantic objects
   in pages could be used to do commerce.
   ... This would give browser vendors an incentive to participate -
   there is an economic incentive.

   Ivan: I think we should be very conservative in what we sign
   ourselves up to do.
   ... This could become a great deal of work.
   ... We want to make sure that the group is independent and if we go
   toward browser vendors too much, it could be interpreted as we're
   doing all HTML5 work, which is not true.

   <scribe> ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is
   illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   Shane: They're reserved, but they can start with 'xml'

   <scribe> ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded
   in [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   Manu: Update on sparql.org - bug in librdfa. It uses
   datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral" not parseType="Literal"

   Ivan: I disagree - you should canonicalize in both cases.
   ... It's not clear, but I don't think we should pursue it.

   Shane: I do emit parsetype="Literal"

RDFa WG charter updates

   Manu: I have started asking others to join... what happens if they
   don't get back to us in time?

   Ivan: I have started working at charter at W3C.
   ... The process has been started.

   Manu: Anything you need?

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to convert WG Charter page to W3C charter
   format [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

   Ivan: Would be nice to convert wiki page to HTML charter.

   Shane: The only place CURIEs are defined normatively are in XHTML
   and RDFa.
   ... CURIE spec is never going to be published as a REC...
   ... There are other specs that need to refer to CURIEs normatively.
   ... Do we need to separate out CURIE spec and make it normative?
   ... @role, access and XMLEvents refer to CURIE normatively.

   <Steven> WAI ARIA

   Steven: I don't think we're going to take them out of XML Events 2 -
   we'll still use the notation.

   Ivan: Having it as a separate REC in RDFa WG would be bad.

URIs in @rel, @rev, @property, @typeof and @datatype

   Mark: So, the only real sustained objection to RDFa has been the use
   of CURIEs.
   ... We do like CURIEs, and it does help more than it hinders in most
   cases.
   ... But, it wouldn't hurt to support an alternative.
   ... We could allow URIs where only CURIEs can be used.
   ... It's a useful feature in it's own right... we should make it a
   greater priority.
   ... If we can address this issue, we should.
   ... In terms of the actual solution itself, the core of what I've
   argued is that we may be able to solve this by thinking about the
   problem differently.
   ... We could say that an entry without a clearly defined prefix is
   certainly not a CURIE and certainly is something else... a URI, for
   example.
   ... This solution is backwards-compatible.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about relative URIs

   Shane: I want to confirm that we're discussing absolute URIs, not
   relative URIs.
   ... What about rel="/foo/bar" ?
   ... you can't do that... you have to start with a scheme name... it
   has to be an absolute URI.

   Mark: There are two RFCs on this - one of them allows it, one of
   them discourages it... it's undefined.
   ... So, if you do "file:FILENAME" - in lots of systems, that will be
   your desktop.

   Shane: If we are talking about absolute URIs, this solution is
   dead-easy.
   ... We should go ahead and plan to do it.
   ... Mark, you use the term protocol, I think the term is "scheme"

   Ivan: I agree, but there is one more step that we could make.
   ... What about CURIEs for @about and @resource?
   ... So, it's okay for @about and @resource, but what about @href and
   @resource?
   ... What about safe curies in @href?

   Steven: We don't allow it in @href.

   Ivan: I meant @href and @src.
   ... We don't even allow safe CURIEs in @href and @src...

   Shane: The RDFa spec doesn't talk about it in @href and @src - we
   defer to the host language.

   Ivan: Do we have a test case for this? Test case to test safe CURIEs
   in @href and @src?

   Steven: Safe CURIEs wouldn't validate in @href and @src.

   Manu: Any objections to moving forward with this?
   ... Perhaps Mark can author some spec text and post it to the list?

   <scribe> ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof
   and @datatype spec text [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

   Mark: What about having a way to trigger this experimental behavior?

Triggering experimental behavior

   Shane: Do we have an announcement mechanism for enabling this new
   URIs everywhere feature?

   Mark: Perhaps we don't need that for this feature, since it's
   backwards-compatible?

   Manu: What if we do rel="rdfa:featureX"?

   Mark: I think it isn't correct to do that. In-band triples shouldn't
   change the triples that the the processor is generating.

Test Case 140

   <ShaneM> the test says <p xmlns:_="[21]http://example.org/"
   property="_:test">Test</p>

     [21] http://example.org/

   <Steven> property="rdfa:version"

   Ivan: I think we got confused? Maybe had an HTTP 400 error.
   ... I think this is perfectly legal, and we should generate a
   triple?
   ... Wait a second...

   <ivan> _:test

   Shane: We say that '_' is a reserved prefix for bnodes.

   <ShaneM> [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies

     [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies

   Shane: spec text says - the mapping to use with the '_' prefix, is
   not explicitly stated, but since it is used to generate [bnode]s,
   its implementation needs to be compatible with the RDF definition.

   Ivan: RDF doesn't say anything about '_'
   ... We have to agree how we specify blank-nodes.
   ... In TURTLE, the _ as a prefix defines blank nodes.

   Manu: That sentence isn't clear.

   Ivan: What is intended is clear to me...

   Manu: I think we need errata text.

   Ivan: Yes, we should have more errata text.

   Shane: Yes, more errata text.

   Manu: any objections to moving to ASK WHERE { ?s ?p ?o. } ?

   Ivan: I may generate warning triples...

   <ivan> <> ?p "Test" .

   Manu: Everybody okay about using that SPARQL instead?

   <ivan> <> <[23]http://example.org/test> "Test"

     [23] http://example.org/test%3E

   Manu: Yes, we'll change the SPARQL to that.

   <ShaneM> Question: in Mark's proposal for URI processing, should the
   parser ensure it is a valid URI ?

   syntactically valid?

   probably.

   <ShaneM> kk thanks

   although, that's going to be a PITA for my parser.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to convert WG Charter page to W3C charter format
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [NEW] ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof and
   @datatype spec text [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text, clarifying
   that prefixes cannot be '_' character [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded
   in [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via
   mailing list [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in
   RDFa WG. [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded
   in [30]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [28] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
     [29] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
     [30] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to update the charter to talk about RDFa API
   [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [DONE] ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal
   in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
     [32] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [33]scribe.perl version 1.135
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    $Date: 2009/11/12 18:38:38 $
     _________________________________________________________

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-- 

Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf

Received on Thursday, 12 November 2009 18:41:16 UTC

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