- From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
- Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:43:09 -0500
- To: RDFa Developers <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
What follows is an IRC log of the RDFa and Microdata in HTML5 break-out session that happened today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -->| YOU (manu) have joined #html-wg2 =-= Topic for #html-wg2 is “RDFa and Microdata next steps, in Salon B” =-= Topic for #html-wg2 was set by MikeSmith on Fri Nov 6 11:53:20 2009 <timeless> ... The current HTML5+RDFa draft takes use of that provision <timeless> ... so it's kind of a question of whether validator profiles will take into account such specifications <timeless> ... will they put them into <timeless> tantek: does html5 define a validation model for extensions? <timeless> Hixie: I don't understand what that means <timeless> MJS: HTML5 defines the concrete syntax <timeless> ... converting source into DOM * manu unfortunately has an unrelated 2 hour meeting right now, but will check this thread after I get back. <timeless> ... and defining values for certain attributes <timeless> ... other documents would have to define how their things integrate <timeless> tantek: extensions work at the DOM or tree model <timeless> ... instead of the parsing model? <timeless> MJS: correct <timeless> plh: ... <timeless> ... maybe it would be worth writing a document somewhere <timeless> ... saying "these are the use cases for ..." <timeless> Hixie: We actually have the use cases for microdata <timeless> ... but I've never seen that for RDFa <tantek> Zakim q? <timeless> plh: Who is the community who sees them as unrelated <tantek> Zakim, q? <Zakim> I see plh on the speaker queue <timeless> ... if we don't tell them "this is what you should use" <tantek> ack plh * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <timeless> Hixie: we have an open bug on making the use of data-* more clear <timeless> plh: take those use cases and put them into one document <timeless> Hixie: I think the spec does this rather well <timeless> ... we have an introduction that explains how to use this and (when?) <timeless> ... In my view, we shouldn't split this out <timeless> ... there is one thing which needs to be integrated in and that'll help make it clearer <timeless> plh: do we have a list of where all the extensions are? <timeless> Hixie: this isn't really practical <timeless> ... there are too many <timeless> ... and i don't think people will come to the spec looking for this <timeless> tantek: I heard three requests from plh <timeless> ... 1. use cases <timeless> ... 2. a tutorial, of how to use the different pieces <Hixie> plh, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0207.html has the list of use cases used for developing microdata <timeless> ... 3. some sort of documentation iterating all of the extension mechanisms in htm5 <timeless> plh: ... <timeless> ... I think we could put some of this in <timeless> ... a wiki (perhaps) <timeless> Hixie: do we have something like this in html4? <timeless> plh: no, we don't <Julian> canvas? <timeless> Hixie: i don't think this has been a problem <annevk> Julian, not an author extension <timeless> tantek: when I looked at html4, i had a lot of trouble figuring out what was extensible, and what wasn't <timeless> ... I ended up writing this up in XMDP <annevk> Julian, also a bad example, Apple is still regretting doing it unilaterally -->| rubys (rubys@72.254.62.24) has joined #html-wg2 <timeless> ... before that, there were very few extensions in html <timeless> ... it was only after someone took the time to do that, that people started doing that <timeless> Hixie: I think it's healthy not to encourage this <Julian> q+ * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue <timeless> plh: If they're going to do it, they want to give them some guidance <plh> s/they want/we want/ <tantek> q+ * Zakim sees Julian, tantek on the speaker queue <timeless> [ scribe pauses to roll back to elsewhere ] <timeless> ack Julian * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue <tantek> ack julian * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue <timeless> Julian: I don't buy the argument that extensibility should not be well documented to make it harder to use it <timeless> ... people will do it <timeless> Julian: see <canvas> <timeless> Hixie: well <canvas> happened *way* later * tantek notes that <canvas> didn't use any HTML4 extensibility mechanisms. <timeless> ... and I told apple to go to the working group <Kai> HTML 4 was not extended, because most people didn't really understand it. <timeless> ack tantek * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <timeless> tantek: I'm going to stay neutral on this <timeless> ... it would have helped to have the document i ended up writing <timeless> ... on the other hand, the process of doing the research <tross> q+ to state that guidance helps avoid conflicts with future HTML features * Zakim sees tross on the speaker queue <timeless> ... led me to a far deeper understanding, than had i just read a tutorial <timeless> tantek: I'm going to propose to wrap this up <timeless> ... for people who want such tutorials <timeless> ... you're welcome to write tutorials, or file change requests <timeless> Hixie: ... or file bugs <timeless> tantek: ... or just leave material on the side that search engines can find <timeless> ... I'm hearing no requests for a change request <timeless> q? * Zakim sees tross on the speaker queue <tantek> ack tross <Zakim> tross, you wanted to state that guidance helps avoid conflicts with future HTML features * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith <tantek> tross: we have had trouble figuring out how to not step on parts of HTML5 with extensions. <MikeSmith> tross: ... while also enabling people to produce conformant documents -->| timeless_mbp (timeless@72.254.100.219) has joined #html-wg2 <MikeSmith> scribe: timeless_mbp <timeless_mbp> RRSAgent: make minutes <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg2-minutes.html timeless_mbp <timeless_mbp> scribenick: timeless_mbp <timeless_mbp> [ proposal for coffee break ] <timeless_mbp> tantek: I heard plh 's request about use cases |<-- timeless has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout) <timeless_mbp> ... i'm also going to raise this up -->| markbirbeck (markbirbec@195.40.123.90) has joined #html-wg2 <timeless_mbp> ... this has been a source of perma threads on the mailing list <timeless_mbp> ... i think it would be useful to put the use cases somewhere else other than the email archives <timeless_mbp> ... it would be useful to put them, e.g. in a wiki page <timeless_mbp> ... just in the interest of reducing the amount of duplicate traffic on the mailing list <timeless_mbp> Hixie: I think the use cases are on a wiki page <timeless_mbp> tantek: I heard that plh is willing to help <Hixie> plh, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Microdata_Problem_Descriptions is the wiki page <Hixie> plh, and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0207.html is the e-mail <timeless_mbp> Hixie: oh you wanted it for extensions, not just microdata <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies <timeless_mbp> annevk: We did have something like this <myakura> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019681.html that one? <Hixie> plh, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_a_way_for_anyone_to_invent_new_elements.21 is the extension mechanism list <timeless_mbp> tantek: I'm going to ask plh to review that page <timeless_mbp> ... and otherwise, i think this issue is closed <tantek> zakim, q? <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> Hixie: plh if you look at all of the urls that were just pasted <timeless_mbp> ... they're all related/derivatives <timeless_mbp> ... the wiki is probably out of date <timeless_mbp> ... feel free to edit the what wg wiki to your heart's content <timeless_mbp> tantek: other topics? <timeless_mbp> ... it was noted that these are both extensions <timeless_mbp> ... mjs mentioned that html5 allows both attributes and elements <timeless_mbp> ... do both RDFa and microdata add just attributes? <Julian> q+ * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> Hixie: that's an incomplete explanation <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa also adds APIs <timeless_mbp> ... one of these relies on something from drag and drop <tantek> ack Julian * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> ack Julian * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> Julian: I think people are working on a javascript spec for RDFa <timeless_mbp> ... it's not in the spec, but people are working on a proposal <annevk> (RDFa adds near-infinite attributes) <timeless_mbp> tantek: any other issues? <Hixie> what i said above is that microdata has a DOM API, not RDFa <timeless_mbp> ... are we only talking about moving RDFa into a separate spec? <timeless_mbp> Julian: it's a big time spot <Julian> s/spot/slot/ <timeless_mbp> BryanSullivan: it would be good ... <timeless_mbp> ... to have a comparison-tutorial for how these stack up together <timeless_mbp> ... without having to go into them in deep detail <timeless_mbp> Hixie: it would be really helpful for someone who has not established a public opinion <timeless_mbp> ... to write this <timeless_mbp> tantek: the source is often accused of bias based on who the source is <timeless_mbp> ... it's a tough problem to compare the three in a way that is objective and seems objective <timeless_mbp> plh: how stable are all three <timeless_mbp> ... ? <timeless_mbp> Hixie: microdata and RDFa <timeless_mbp> ... microdata has issues open as to whether it should exist or not <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa has issues as to whether to use namespaces or not <timeless_mbp> ... for microdata, stability depends on when/how we get implementations <timeless_mbp> ... without an implementation in the next six months, then the spec is very fluid <timeless_mbp> tantek: does anyone want to address stability for RDFa <timeless_mbp> ... technically <timeless_mbp> Julian: i think there are open questions about edge cases <timeless_mbp> ... i don't anything in the generic syntax <timeless_mbp> Hixie: there is an open bug about namespaces in RDFa <timeless_mbp> plh: I don't want someone who might spend time to make a tutorial to waste their time if there's significant potential change <timeless_mbp> Hixie: ... in microdata, i think the desire is for microdata to cease to exist (?) <timeless_mbp> ... from my point of view, i don't think microdata needs to exist <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa has flaws <timeless_mbp> ... especially namespaces/prefixes <timeless_mbp> tantek: use cases can be found in the microformats wiki <Julian> q+ * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> s/use cases/open issues/ <timeless_mbp> ack Julian * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <tantek> ack Julian * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> Julian: i want to mention that there's disagreement as to whether the use of namespaces and prefixes is an actual bug <Kai> q+ * Zakim sees Kai on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> tantek: is there an actual bug for this? <timeless_mbp> Hixie: bug 7670 <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7670 |<-- mjs has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: mjs) * timeless_mbp thanks Hixie -->| mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) has joined #html-wg2 <timeless_mbp> MJS: the process for resolving this issue <timeless_mbp> ... will be the same as if this were a bug against the main html5 spec <timeless_mbp> ... the html5+RDFa editor will need to give an initial editor's response <timeless_mbp> ... and if someone cares to raise a complaint, it will go to the issue tracker |<-- mjs has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: mjs) <timeless_mbp> ... and once it's in the issue tracker, we'll solicit change proposals * timeless_mbp tries out things <timeless_mbp> q? * Zakim sees Kai on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> ack Kai * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue <tantek> zakim, q? <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> Kai: (deutsche telecom) <timeless_mbp> ... I want to make a plug for RDFa <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa is sort of on the upswing <timeless_mbp> ... I don't think one can really say at this point, what's going to happen <timeless_mbp> ... i bet there will be tons of use cases in <timeless_mbp> ... where there will be lots of files <timeless_mbp> ... using this stuff <timeless_mbp> Hixie: microdata and RDFa are both serializations of RDF -->| mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) has joined #html-wg2 <timeless_mbp> ... they fulfill the same use cases <timeless_mbp> ... in exactly the same places where you can have urls in RDFa, you can have urls in microdata <timeless_mbp> ... the exception is per field data types <tantek> zakim, q? <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue |<-- mnot has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout) <timeless_mbp> ... and xml-wippls (?) <timeless_mbp> Kai: i find it difficult for such a relatively small group to foresee what will actually happen <timeless_mbp> Hixie: just having one of either type will satisfy users <markbirbeck> @Hixie: I don't like namespaces/prefixes either, but I think they are here for a while to come. However, in the RDFa TF, I am pushing for 'URIs-everywhere' -- i.e., authors don't need to use namespaces if they don't want to. Would that address your issue with RDFa? Or is it really 'all namespaces must go'? <timeless_mbp> tantek: Kai: i'm going to ask you to review those urls from irc <timeless_mbp> ... and describe the <timeless_mbp> Kai: I need approval before i could join <timeless_mbp> Kai: I have a question, have you talked to Evan Herman? <plh> s/Evan/Ivan/ <timeless_mbp> Julian: I think he's on the RDFa task force <timeless_mbp> tantek: the specific request was for additional use cases <timeless_mbp> Kai: i think we could ask Evan to look for additional use cases <timeless_mbp> s/Evan/Ivan/ <plh> s/Evan/Ivan/ <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: was there a dispute as to whether microdata didn't address all the use cases of RDFa <tantek> Zakim, q? <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: I think we have massive amounts of use cases <timeless_mbp> mjs: I think if anyone wants to talk to other communities, they're welcome to <timeless_mbp> ... I think chairs have a lot of work to do <timeless_mbp> tantek: Kai, request: either you document use cases, or you talk to Ivan and request that he document the use cases on a web page <Hixie> markbirbeck: imho we should never introduce namespaces to text/html <tantek> zakim, q? <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue <timeless_mbp> doug: are we expecting an equal amount of use cases from microdata? <timeless_mbp> tantek: we already have this for microdata -->| glenng (48fe68fb@64.62.228.82) has joined #html-wg2 |<-- tross has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: CGI:IRC) |<-- mjs has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: mjs) <timeless_mbp> tantek: I want to Close this Session |<-- adrianba has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout) |<-- Eliot_Graff has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.) =-= timeless_mbp is now known as timeless |<-- weinig has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: weinig) * tantek noted queue is empty, MJS noted time is up, hence close session |<-- Julian has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout) <timeless> scribenick: timeless <hober> (this is several months out-of-date with respect to microdata and rdfa-in-html changes, but) I put together some thoughts on how microdata, microformats, rdf, and rdfa relate: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/05/microdata-microformats-and-rdf <timeless> ... as the queue is empty, and MJS noted time is up <timeless> SESSION CLOSED -- manu -- Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny) President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Establishing an Open Digital Media Commerce Standard http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2009/09/28/a-digital-content-commerce-standard/
Received on Friday, 6 November 2009 19:42:15 UTC