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TPAC09: IRC log of RDFa and Microdata in HTML5 session

From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:43:09 -0500
Message-ID: <4AF47C4D.8030304@digitalbazaar.com>
To: RDFa Developers <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
What follows is an IRC log of the RDFa and Microdata in HTML5 break-out
session that happened today.


-->|	YOU (manu) have joined #html-wg2
 =-= Topic for #html-wg2 is “RDFa and Microdata next steps, in Salon B”
 =-= Topic for #html-wg2 was set by MikeSmith on Fri Nov 6 11:53:20 2009
 <timeless> ... The current HTML5+RDFa draft takes use of that provision
 <timeless> ... so it's kind of a question of whether validator profiles
will take into account such specifications
 <timeless> ... will they put them into
 <timeless> tantek: does html5 define a validation model for extensions?
 <timeless> Hixie: I don't understand what that means
 <timeless> MJS: HTML5 defines the concrete syntax
 <timeless> ... converting source into DOM
 * manu unfortunately has an unrelated 2 hour meeting right now, but
will check this thread after I get back.
 <timeless> ... and defining values for certain attributes
 <timeless> ... other documents would have to define how their things
 <timeless> tantek: extensions work at the DOM or tree model
 <timeless> ... instead of the parsing model?
 <timeless> MJS: correct
 <timeless> plh: ...
 <timeless> ... maybe it would be worth writing a document somewhere
 <timeless> ... saying "these are the use cases for ..."
 <timeless> Hixie: We actually have the use cases for microdata
 <timeless> ... but I've never seen that for RDFa
 <tantek> Zakim q?
 <timeless> plh: Who is the community who sees them as unrelated
 <tantek> Zakim, q?
 <Zakim> I see plh on the speaker queue
 <timeless> ... if we don't tell them "this is what you should use"
 <tantek> ack plh
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless> Hixie: we have an open bug on making the use of data-* more
 <timeless> plh: take those use cases and put them into one document
 <timeless> Hixie: I think the spec does this rather well
 <timeless> ... we have an introduction that explains how to use this
and (when?)
 <timeless> ... In my view, we shouldn't split this out
 <timeless> ... there is one thing which needs to be integrated in and
that'll help make it clearer
 <timeless> plh: do we have a list of where all the extensions are?
 <timeless> Hixie: this isn't really practical
 <timeless> ... there are too many
 <timeless> ... and i don't think people will come to the spec looking
for this
 <timeless> tantek: I heard three requests from plh
 <timeless> ... 1. use cases
 <timeless> ... 2. a tutorial, of how to use the different pieces
 <Hixie> plh,
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0207.html has
the list of use cases used for developing microdata
 <timeless> ... 3. some sort of documentation iterating all of the
extension mechanisms in htm5
 <timeless> plh: ...
 <timeless> ... I think we could put some of this in
 <timeless> ... a wiki (perhaps)
 <timeless> Hixie: do we have something like this in html4?
 <timeless> plh: no, we don't
 <Julian> canvas?
 <timeless> Hixie: i don't think this has been a problem
 <annevk> Julian, not an author extension
 <timeless> tantek: when I looked at html4, i had a lot of trouble
figuring out what was extensible, and what wasn't
 <timeless> ... I ended up writing this up in XMDP
 <annevk> Julian, also a bad example, Apple is still regretting doing it
 -->| rubys (rubys@ has joined #html-wg2
 <timeless> ... before that, there were very few extensions in html
 <timeless> ... it was only after someone took the time to do that, that
people started doing that
 <timeless> Hixie: I think it's healthy not to encourage this
 <Julian> q+
 * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
 <timeless> plh: If they're going to do it, they want to give them some
 <plh> s/they want/we want/
 <tantek> q+
 * Zakim sees Julian, tantek on the speaker queue
 <timeless> [ scribe pauses to roll back to elsewhere ]
 <timeless> ack Julian
 * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
 <tantek> ack julian
 * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
 <timeless> Julian: I don't buy the argument that extensibility should
not be well documented to make it harder to use it
 <timeless> ... people will do it
 <timeless> Julian: see <canvas>
 <timeless> Hixie: well <canvas> happened *way* later
 * tantek notes that <canvas> didn't use any HTML4 extensibility mechanisms.
 <timeless> ... and I told apple to go to the working group
 <Kai> HTML 4 was not extended, because most people didn't really
understand it.
 <timeless> ack tantek
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless> tantek: I'm going to stay neutral on this
 <timeless> ... it would have helped to have the document i ended up writing
 <timeless> ... on the other hand, the process of doing the research
 <tross> q+ to state that guidance helps avoid conflicts with future
HTML features
 * Zakim sees tross on the speaker queue
 <timeless> ... led me to a far deeper understanding, than had i just
read a tutorial
 <timeless> tantek: I'm going to propose to wrap this up
 <timeless> ... for people who want such tutorials
 <timeless> ... you're welcome to write tutorials, or file change requests
 <timeless> Hixie: ... or file bugs
 <timeless> tantek: ... or just leave material on the side that search
engines can find
 <timeless> ... I'm hearing no requests for a change request
 <timeless> q?
 * Zakim sees tross on the speaker queue
 <tantek> ack tross
 <Zakim> tross, you wanted to state that guidance helps avoid conflicts
with future HTML features
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
 <tantek> tross: we have had trouble figuring out how to not step on
parts of HTML5 with extensions.
 <MikeSmith> tross: ... while also enabling people to produce conformant
 -->| timeless_mbp (timeless@ has joined #html-wg2
 <MikeSmith> scribe: timeless_mbp
 <timeless_mbp> RRSAgent: make minutes
 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg2-minutes.html timeless_mbp
 <timeless_mbp> scribenick: timeless_mbp
 <timeless_mbp> [ proposal for coffee break ]
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: I heard plh 's request about use cases
 |<-- timeless has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout)
 <timeless_mbp> ... i'm also going to raise this up
 -->| markbirbeck (markbirbec@ has joined #html-wg2
 <timeless_mbp> ... this has been a source of perma threads on the
mailing list
 <timeless_mbp> ... i think it would be useful to put the use cases
somewhere else other than the email archives
 <timeless_mbp> ... it would be useful to put them, e.g. in a wiki page
 <timeless_mbp> ... just in the interest of reducing the amount of
duplicate traffic on the mailing list
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: I think the use cases are on a wiki page
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: I heard that plh is willing to help
 <Hixie> plh, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Microdata_Problem_Descriptions
is the wiki page
 <Hixie> plh, and
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0207.html is the
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: oh you wanted it for extensions, not just microdata
 <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies
 <timeless_mbp> annevk: We did have something like this
that one?
 <Hixie> plh,
is the extension mechanism list
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: I'm going to ask plh to review that page
 <timeless_mbp> ... and otherwise, i think this issue is closed
 <tantek> zakim, q?
 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: plh if you look at all of the urls that were just
 <timeless_mbp> ... they're all related/derivatives
 <timeless_mbp> ... the wiki is probably out of date
 <timeless_mbp> ... feel free to edit the what wg wiki to your heart's
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: other topics?
 <timeless_mbp> ... it was noted that these are both extensions
 <timeless_mbp> ... mjs mentioned that html5 allows both attributes and
 <timeless_mbp> ... do both RDFa and microdata add just attributes?
 <Julian> q+
 * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: that's an incomplete explanation
 <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa also adds APIs
 <timeless_mbp> ... one of these relies on something from drag and drop
 <tantek> ack Julian
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> ack Julian
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> Julian: I think people are working on a javascript spec
for RDFa
 <timeless_mbp> ... it's not in the spec, but people are working on a
 <annevk> (RDFa adds near-infinite attributes)
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: any other issues?
 <Hixie> what i said above is that microdata has a DOM API, not RDFa
 <timeless_mbp> ... are we only talking about moving RDFa into a
separate spec?
 <timeless_mbp> Julian: it's a big time spot
 <Julian> s/spot/slot/
 <timeless_mbp> BryanSullivan: it would be good ...
 <timeless_mbp> ... to have a comparison-tutorial for how these stack up
 <timeless_mbp> ... without having to go into them in deep detail
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: it would be really helpful for someone who has
not established a public opinion
 <timeless_mbp> ... to write this
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: the source is often accused of bias based on who
the source is
 <timeless_mbp> ... it's a tough problem to compare the three in a way
that is objective and seems objective
 <timeless_mbp> plh: how stable are all three
 <timeless_mbp> ... ?
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: microdata and RDFa
 <timeless_mbp> ... microdata has issues open as to whether it should
exist or not
 <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa has issues as to whether to use namespaces or not
 <timeless_mbp> ... for microdata, stability depends on when/how we get
 <timeless_mbp> ... without an implementation in the next six months,
then the spec is very fluid
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: does anyone want to address stability for RDFa
 <timeless_mbp> ... technically
 <timeless_mbp> Julian: i think there are open questions about edge cases
 <timeless_mbp> ... i don't anything in the generic syntax
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: there is an open bug about namespaces in RDFa
 <timeless_mbp> plh: I don't want someone who might spend time to make a
tutorial to waste their time if there's significant potential change
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: ... in microdata, i think the desire is for
microdata to cease to exist (?)
 <timeless_mbp> ... from my point of view, i don't think microdata needs
to exist
 <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa has flaws
 <timeless_mbp> ... especially namespaces/prefixes
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: use cases can be found in the microformats wiki
 <Julian> q+
 * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> s/use cases/open issues/
 <timeless_mbp> ack Julian
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <tantek> ack Julian
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> Julian: i want to mention that there's disagreement as
to whether the use of namespaces and prefixes is an actual bug
 <Kai> q+
 * Zakim sees Kai on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: is there an actual bug for this?
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: bug 7670
 <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7670
 |<-- mjs has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: mjs)
 * timeless_mbp thanks Hixie
 -->| mjs (mjs@ has joined #html-wg2
 <timeless_mbp> MJS: the process for resolving this issue
 <timeless_mbp> ... will be the same as if this were a bug against the
main html5 spec
 <timeless_mbp> ... the html5+RDFa editor will need to give an initial
editor's response
 <timeless_mbp> ... and if someone cares to raise a complaint, it will
go to the issue tracker
 |<-- mjs has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: mjs)
 <timeless_mbp> ... and once it's in the issue tracker, we'll solicit
change proposals
 * timeless_mbp tries out things
 <timeless_mbp> q?
 * Zakim sees Kai on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> ack Kai
 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
 <tantek> zakim, q?
 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> Kai: (deutsche telecom)
 <timeless_mbp> ... I want to make a plug for RDFa
 <timeless_mbp> ... RDFa is sort of on the upswing
 <timeless_mbp> ... I don't think one can really say at this point,
what's going to happen
 <timeless_mbp> ... i bet there will be tons of use cases in
 <timeless_mbp> ... where there will be lots of files
 <timeless_mbp> ... using this stuff
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: microdata and RDFa are both serializations of RDF
 -->| mjs (mjs@ has joined #html-wg2
 <timeless_mbp> ... they fulfill the same use cases
 <timeless_mbp> ... in exactly the same places where you can have urls
in RDFa, you can have urls in microdata
 <timeless_mbp> ... the exception is per field data types
 <tantek> zakim, q?
 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
 |<-- mnot has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout)
 <timeless_mbp> ... and xml-wippls (?)
 <timeless_mbp> Kai: i find it difficult for such a relatively small
group to foresee what will actually happen
 <timeless_mbp> Hixie: just having one of either type will satisfy users
 <markbirbeck> @Hixie: I don't like namespaces/prefixes either, but I
think they are here for a while to come. However, in the RDFa TF, I am
pushing for 'URIs-everywhere' -- i.e., authors don't need to use
namespaces if they don't want to. Would that address your issue with
RDFa? Or is it really 'all namespaces must go'?
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: Kai: i'm going to ask you to review those urls
from irc
 <timeless_mbp> ... and describe the
 <timeless_mbp> Kai: I need approval before i could join
 <timeless_mbp> Kai: I have a question, have you talked to Evan Herman?
 <plh> s/Evan/Ivan/
 <timeless_mbp> Julian: I think he's on the RDFa task force
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: the specific request was for additional use cases
 <timeless_mbp> Kai: i think we could ask Evan to look for additional
use cases
 <timeless_mbp> s/Evan/Ivan/
 <plh> s/Evan/Ivan/
 <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: was there a dispute as to whether microdata
didn't address all the use cases of RDFa
 <tantek> Zakim, q?
 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: I think we have massive amounts of use cases
 <timeless_mbp> mjs: I think if anyone wants to talk to other
communities, they're welcome to
 <timeless_mbp> ... I think chairs have a lot of work to do
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: Kai, request: either you document use cases, or
you talk to Ivan and request that he document the use cases on a web page
 <Hixie> markbirbeck: imho we should never introduce namespaces to text/html
 <tantek> zakim, q?
 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
 <timeless_mbp> doug: are we expecting an equal amount of use cases from
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: we already have this for microdata
 -->| glenng (48fe68fb@ has joined #html-wg2
 |<-- tross has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: CGI:IRC)
 |<-- mjs has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: mjs)
 <timeless_mbp> tantek: I want to Close this Session
 |<-- adrianba has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout)
 |<-- Eliot_Graff has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: For Sale: Parachute.
Only used once, never opened, small stain.)
 =-= timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
 |<-- weinig has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Quit: weinig)
 * tantek noted queue is empty, MJS noted time is up, hence close session
 |<-- Julian has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout)
 <timeless> scribenick: timeless
 <hober> (this is several months out-of-date with respect to microdata
and rdfa-in-html changes, but) I put together some thoughts on how
microdata, microformats, rdf, and rdfa relate:
 <timeless> ... as the queue is empty, and MJS noted time is up
 <timeless> SESSION CLOSED

-- manu

Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny)
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Establishing an Open Digital Media Commerce Standard
Received on Friday, 6 November 2009 19:42:15 UTC

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