- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:01:52 -0500
- To: public-swd-wg@w3.org, public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon [1] are ready
for review.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes
Topics
1. Action Items
2. Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)
3. Test Suite Update
4. XHTML 1.1 Module Update
5. 5. Setting a Schedule
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
A text snapshot follows:
----
RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
5 Mar 2007
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0013.html
See also: [3]IRC log, [4]Previous 2007-02-12
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes
Attendees
Present
Ralph Swick, Michael Hausenblas, Wing Yung, Steven Pemberton,
Simone Onofri, Ben Adida, Elias Torres, Mark Birbeck
Regrets
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Contents
* Topics
1. Action Items
2. Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)
3. Test Suite Update
4. XHTML 1.1 Module Update
5. 5. Setting a Schedule
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
Simone: my name is pronounced (as Ralph hears it) "see moan eh"
Action Items
ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page
[recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
[CONTINUES]
[12] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09
Michael: I agreed to support that action for Ben
<mhausenblas> [13]RiR
[13] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/#sec4
Michael: [14]RiR is meant to be a list of features supported by RDFa
... e.g. containers probably are 'in', reification is probably 'out'
... I can add more detail to the list and I may have missed some
features
[14] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/#sec4
Ben: TimBL might add some examples of N3 that cannot be expressed in
RDFa
... what are the 'levels' meant to indicate?
Michael: links point to QA document
... allows for incremental enhancement of a spec
Ben: I worry this idea of 'levels' might imply more complication
than there really is
Michael: we should decide whether to say 'this is all we support and
no more' or indicate possible future features
Ralph: is it still useful to have a Wiki page so the community can
edit?
Ben: I think so
Michael: I can prepare a discussion of this in the Wiki
... don't want to duplicate work
ACTION: [DONE] Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the
W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
-> [16]action progress: test suite hosting [26]
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0130.html
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0004.html
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type,
etc. [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported
by RDFa [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded
in [19]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
Ben: I thought about it so long that I missed the deadline
... I might talk during the W3C track
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[CONTINUES]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
Ben: making some progress; Use Case document updated to include a
little bit of Science Commons example
... still hope for a big realistic example to include
ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on
June 1 [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[CONTINUES]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09
Ben: I'd like feedback on this
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded
in [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
Elias: I also am looking for a use case that adds more specifics
... deciding whether to go to WWW2007 or XTech; I submitted an
RDFa/GRDDL talk
Ben: a Use Case can be more abstract; can show "here's the triples
we'd like to produce"
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary
relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[CONTINUES]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started
[recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
<mhausenblas> [25]RDFa FAQ
[25] http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#FAQ
Ben: Simone, comments on the FAQ from your new fresh eyes would be
especially useful
Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)
Ben: I commited new updates to Primer and Scenarios on Friday
... mostly editorial, related to comments received
-> [26]Update to RDFa Scenarios, including response to Comments Ben
2007-03-02]
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0004.html
Ben: one comment remaining on clarifying the predicates should be
cleaned up
... the document currently assumes namespaced classes
... are we comfortable enough with this to publish these WDs as they
are?
Ralph: "publish, publish, publish" It's not going to be perfect
Steven: don't say I didn't warn you
Ralph: WAI-ARIA is emphasizing use of @role, so I certainly don't
think this discussion is over
... but let's publish and get comments
<EliasT> I'm +1 to publishing. (dialing back in)
PROPOSE: publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs
<mhausenblas> +1
<wing> +1
<RalphS> +1
<Simone> +1
Steven: warning, re: use of @class
RESOLVED Ask WG to publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs
Ben: I would like to respond to Antoine's comment about multiple
@rel and @property before publishing; I think it is one sentence
Test Suite Update
-> [27]RDFa Test Suite
[27] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/
Ben: we're not providing enough feedback on the test suite
<mhausenblas>
[28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007M
ar/0010.html
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html
Michael: DanC has given us lots of test suite feedback
... I'd like us to settle whether we're going to try to do
conformance testing or not
Michael: I would like just to claim that "any tool that claims to be
RDFa-compliant has to correctly parse all the test cases"
... i.e. passing test suite is necessary but may not be sufficient
... DanC was commenting about what conformance testing could or
should be
... he felt that we could not do conformance testing
... I hope to prove that something is conforming but not to try to
prove non-conformance
... many specifications already provide conformance tests, though
perhaps not as strong as what I envision
Elias: is the problem just because of the word "conformance"? If so,
let's drop that word
Michael: look at -> [29]my response to Dan
... an agent that claims to be RDFa-aware must pass the test suite,
but passing the test suite does not guarantee the agent is
conforming
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html
Ben: what is the GRDDL test suite called?
Elias: W3C does not bless implementations, so we're not required to
do conformance tests
... all we need to do is provide guidance to developers
Steven: the real reason for a test suite is to test the
_specification_
Ralph: I agree with Steven. DanC has used the test suite to
determine how the WG has responded to a question.
... if a question is raised, one should develop a test to show how
to answer it
... Dan has encouraged us to write a test case in response to any
technical discussion.
<mhausenblas> [30]Conformance testing discussion on QA
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2007Mar/0004.html
Ben: so this seems to be about the usage of the term "conformance"
... I recommend continuing to build the input/output tests but drop
the word "conformance"
Michael: an agent can always trick the test suite by producing
exactly what it requires yet not be a true implementation
Ben: so the test suite is to help developers, help test the
specification, but *not* to test implementations
Elias: the SPARQL test suite gives a set of files and the expected
output
... every SPARQL developer downloads the test suite and runs it
themselves, then they can debate the test suite
... the SPARQL test suite does not invoke any code; it's just the
input and expected output
Mark: I agree that input and expected output is what Michael was
doing but I don't think that is all we should do
... I'd like to provide an interface for people to test their
endpoints
... concerned about only REST-based endpoint, as we haven't
specified a REST requirement
... we should stop at just describing inputs and outputs
... the other side of what Dan is getting at is 'anytime we mention
RDFa in a document we should add to the test suite'
... the moment we create a sample or a line of text in a paragraph,
reflect this in the test suite with an input and output document
Ben: are you suggesting we drop the REST test harness?
Mark: no, it's useful but don't make it mandatory
... the REST harness should not be "the test suite" itself
<mhausenblas>
[31]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/rdfa-test
-manifest.rdf
[31] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/rdfa-test-manifest.rdf
Michael: agree. First we should look at the manifest file
<mhausenblas>
[32]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/
[32] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/
Michael: rdfa-test-manifest is the source; everything else is
generated by Wing's script
<mhausenblas>
[33]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/run-tc.html
[33] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/run-tc.html
<wing> test case results are still TTL
Michael: test runner is supplemental; it just helps test REST-based
endpoints, but I'm happy to move the test runner elsewhere
... the mandatory part is just the manifest and the test case
directory
... we've taken Mark's suggestion to add a SPARQL query to test that
the expected triples are present
... the test asssertions are generated from the manifest
Elias: what property is available in the manifest to cite, e.g. the
irc log where we discuss a test?
<mhausenblas>
[34]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/#RDFaTests
[34] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/#RDFaTests
Michael: see 'status'
Elias: I'm looking for a property that describes why the test was
written
<mhausenblas> pls choose one from
[35]http://www.w3.org/QA/2005/08/test-case-metadata.html
[35] http://www.w3.org/QA/2005/08/test-case-metadata.html
Wing: we can use seeAlso
Elias: also record when we accepted or rejected a test
ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking
origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
Mark: sounds like we're moving closer to a W3C test ontology
Wing: yep, we've been following that
Ben: are we outputting RDFa on the test suite page? :)
Michael: we've thought about that but aren't doing it yet
XHTML 1.1 Module Update
ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[CONTINUES]
[37] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06
Mark: there's a document describing the modularization
... I've given comments to Shane
... sadly, Shane is ill right now
... he had agreed to write the schemas
... the RDFa schemas I wrote don't (yet) drop in smoothly
... I will work on this myself in Shane's absence
... I won't be able to pick this up again until next week
... I'll do the schemas and then we can review
ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where
[recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]
[38] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
Ben: would March 19 be a reasonable date to expect to see update
schemas?
Mark: I have had schemas on my server but they're old
Ben: we should have some versions published in the W3C process to
get feedback
... I don't want this to be a rushed, last-minute thing
Mark: the work on XHTML modularization has been underway for a long
time
Ben: people will be looking at every little detail when we go to REC
Mark: the draft is the primary thing; Shane has aligned this with
the latest XHTML Modularization spec
... we won't gain by getting people to look at year-old schemas
... point people to Shane's draft now
Ben: so let's hope to have schemas updated by March 19
Mark: I'll have the schemas done by March 12
5. Setting a Schedule
<mhausenblas> next week
Mark's mashup demo
MarkB: asked to demonstrate SideWinder
... framework to put together application "widgets"
... how do you get RDF? While you're browsing, etc...
... sidebar in IE and, while you're browsing, looks for RDFa in main
window
... converts it, stores it, and different running sidewinder
applications can run queries
... to pull data out. Example: google map that periodically maps
events browsed.
... browsing process adds triples as you go, don't pay any
attention.
... separate process renders items found.
... next stage is to combine that with previous data.
... parser also does microformat processing.
... main thing we're trying to do is to build stuff into the
browser.
... no demo just yet, but working on it soon.
ADJOURNED
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for
tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[39] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
supported by RDFa [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for
last call on June 1 [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
[recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of
n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec
[recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us
where [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki
page [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that
Elias started [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all
mime type, etc. [recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[40] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01
[41] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
[42] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09
[43] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
[44] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
[45] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06
[46] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
[47] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09
[48] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
[49] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the
W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[50] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
[DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded
in [51]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[51] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
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Received on Monday, 5 March 2007 20:02:49 UTC