- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:01:46 -0400
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
The record of today's RDF in XHTML Task Force telecon [1] is now
ready for review.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html
A text snapshot of $Revision: 1.2 $ of $Date: 2005/10/04 15:51:49 $
follows.
----
RDF-in-XHTML TF
4 Oct 2005
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0001.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-irc
Attendees
Present
Ralph Swick, Steven Pemberton, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck
Regrets
Jeremy Carroll
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Previous
[4]record of 2005-09-27 meeting
[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Sep/0024.html
Next Meeting
11 October
Contents
* Topics
1. role attribute
2. compact URIs
3. Details of RDF/A syntax, inheritance, etc ...
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________________
role attribute
ACTION: Ben to reconstruct action on role attribute with help of
Danbri [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-28-08]
[DONE]
-> [11]The ROLE attribute [Ben 2005-10-02]
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0000.html
Ben: Lisa Seeman has asked to participate in a discussion of Role next
week
... please look at [12]Lisa's document for next week
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/att-0002/00-part
-> [13]Re: The ROLE attribute [Lisa 2005-10-03]
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0002.html
Ben: main question is whether role is syntax for rdf:type or we need a
separate xhtml2:role that is rdfs:subProperty of rdf:type
Steven: some examples in the wiki lead me to suggest that we could use
the role attribute as a shorthand for rdf:type
Mark: we should consider whether role has any relation to rdf:type
... one of the examples had lots of rdf:type properties so Steven
suggested this shorthand might be nice
... but I am having second thoughts
... something that plays the role of something else is not necessarily
of that type
... e.g. a toolbar can play the role of a footer but not _be_ a footer
... saying a toolbar is a footer might attach all sorts of other
properties by inference that it might not legitimately have
Ralph: yes, the client application might want to be able to
distinguish between rdf:type footer and things of other types that
simply have that role
-> [14]discussion of role in meeting record of 2005-08-02
[14] http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-minutes#item04
-> [15]discussion of role in meeting record of 2005-07-26
[15] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#item02
<Steven> Quote: Steven: the danger of the id solution is that id plays
so many roles that you could accidentally insert an id (to be a link
target) and suddenly change your RDF
... in the rdf:type example, I would have written <section
role="foaf:Person">
... I see Mark doesn't use role much, whereas I use it a lot
... why this difference in approach?
... maybe role is being though of differently by each of us and we
should write down what role means
Steven is quoting from [16]26-swbp-minutes]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#item02
Ralph: can we describe what 'role' does mean?
Mark: maybe 'role' is the wrong word
... in a discussion of several years ago, Raman said that 'class'
would be a better word but that word was too confusing w.r.t. CSS
... I explain 'role' to people more in terms of 'intent' or 'purpose'
... i.e. "the purpose of this section ..."
... Raman's examples were to explain why a <script> element was
included
... e.g. the javascript in a <script> plays the role of a hint
... Raman's use cases imagined a server that adds "role='hint'" to
legacy scripts that can no longer be interpreted, then a client can
substitute some other hint
... i.e. the intention of this block is X and I know how to do X some
other way so I can substitute
Steven: I'm not sure these definitions clash
... seems ok to say that something that has a role of a navigation
element also has that type
... [even though] a foaf:Person does have more semantics than a
navigation element
Mark: make sure we're not closing off some avenues, particularly with
the work that Lisa is doing
... make sure we're not going to cause something to acquire lots of
inappropriate properties
... perhaps we need another attribute
Ralph: I'm reluctant to start down the path of additional syntactic
sugar for common properties; where will that end?
Mark: would like more feedback from RDF experts on whether the
semantics of role is consistent with Class
Ralph: I need help from HTML experts to understand what role is
intended to mean
Mark: in the early days we considered role to be like a hint; related
to appearance
Steven: yes, but then we expanded its use to provide a facility to
avoid having to add lots of new elements
... e.g. <span role="person"> adds semantics to the span
Mark: should elements that do add semantics also generate an rdf:type
triple?
... e.g. is <div role="address"> the same as an <address> element?
Steven: address is one of those few elements that do carry an aura of
semantics
... title is a better example; we have said that <title> is the same
as <meta property='title'>
Ben: do we all agree that there is some semantics here that could be
as light as xhtml2:role or as strong as rdf:type?
... we're trying to figure out how strong a statement we're making
with role
Steven: yes; it's clear that role does specify semantic information.
We're trying to clarify its role w.r.t. RDF
ACTION: Ben summarize the question of semantics of the HTML role
attribute and solicit feedback from RDF experts [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
compact URIs
Ben: my concern is not href with CURI -- people who use that construct
need to know that old browsers won't recognize CURIs; the bigger
concern is other attributes like rel that use qnames
Mark: I think it's OK; if CURI is a superset of QName then if QName
works in rel a CURI will also work
... e.g. in XHTML2 we're specifying that role='next' is shorthand for
'role=xhtml:next'
Ben: aren't we requiring additional syntax for CURIs?
Mark: only to resolve the ambiguity in the datatype that accepts both
URIs and CURIs
... the tricky bit is that we have one syntax for rel (only CURI) and
another syntax for href (either URI or CURI)
Ben: so rel='cc:license' would be ok but
rel='http://creativecommons.org/license' is not ok?
Mark: right
... two different syntax for rel and href -- it would be nice if there
were only one syntax but that creates a backwards compatibilty issue
Ben: if there were some magic that let old browsers understand CURIs
in href, we'd want to use that magic
Ralph: two syntaxes is more cognitive load for users but compatibility
gets higher priority for me
Mark: with what are we trying to maintain compatibility?
... what exactly would be the issue with "rel='[next]'"
... we've already said that existing XHTML1 documents might not be
XHTML2 documents
Ralph: I think that's going to be a big issue (XHTML1 doc not being a
valid XHTML2 doc)
Ben: summarizing current proposal; rel is CURI only and about, href
are either URI or CURI
... so change from earlier discussions is that rel, rev, property,
role are upgraded to CURI
Ralph: I suggest polling the XHTML WG and SWBPD WG more formally
... I have just polled the W3C Staff about this CURI idea
Steven: HTML WG has already discussed; [19]Discussion of Qnames and
URIs [Member only]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2005/09/21-html-minutes.html#item07
Mark: I am writing a document summarizing CURIs
... IPTC has already adopted this as a solution
... they had initially wanted W3C to change the definition of QName
ACTION: Mark write CURI specification by 10 Oct [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
Details of RDF/A syntax, inheritance, etc ...
Ben: see my notes in [21]Mark, Ralph, and Ben meet up
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Sep/0026.html
Ben: let's table this until next week when I hope to have more
examples to flesh out these inheritance ideas
... let's also consider [22]Jeremy's concerns about reification
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0009.html
-> [23]CC use case [Jeremy 2005-10-04]
[23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0007.html
Ralph: I think reification plays an important role in helping people
use RDF but it certainly has been confusing to users and there is
considerable opinion that it should be dropped from RDF
Mark: Reuters feels that reification is very important
... provenance; who has made a statement, when they said it, etc.
Ralph: one of the original use cases for reification was to support
PICS; see [24]PICS Rating Vocabularies in XML/RDF
... I'd like to see other big use cases
[24] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-pics
ACTION: Jeremy consider Creative Commons 'who made this license' use
case w.r.t. reification [DONE]
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action04
Ben: [26]Jeremy's example is not something that Creative Commons would
adopt in the way he proposes as it changes too much
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0007.html
ACTION: Ralph and Ben to augment the [27]issues list
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-30-04]
[CONTINUES]
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
<Ralph> I claim some progress
ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
[CONTINUES]
ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
[CONTINUES]
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben summarize the question of semantics of the HTML role
attribute and solicit feedback from RDF experts
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Mark write CURI specification by 10 Oct
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph and Ben to augment the issues list
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-30-04]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to reconstruct action on role attribute with help
of Danbri
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-28-08]
[DONE] ACTION: Jeremy consider Creative Commons 'who made this
license' use case w.r.t. reification [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]
Change History:
$Log: 04-swbp-minutes.html,v $
Revision 1.2 2005/10/04 15:51:49 swick
Cleanup for publication
_____________________________________________________________
$Revision: 1.2 $ of $Date: 2005/10/04 15:51:49 $
Received on Tuesday, 4 October 2005 16:02:54 UTC