- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:09:42 -0400
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
The minutes of today's telecon are
http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes
A text snapshot of revision 1.2 $Date: 2005/04/12 16:04:16 $ follows.
----
RDF-in-XHTML TF
12 Apr 2005
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0018.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc
Attendees
Present
Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Ralph Swick, Steven Pemberton
Regrets
Jeremy
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Previous Meeting
[4]05 April
[4] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes
Next Meeting
26 April
Contents
* [5]Topics
1. [6]Action Review
2. [7]XHTML2 - RDF/A
3. [8]GRDDL
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
 -> [10]previous meeting 2005-04-05
[10] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes
Action Review
-> [11]Last Meeting's action summary
[11] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes#ActionSummary
ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
[CONTINUES]
Ben: I spoke with DanBri and he said he hoped to do this action before
the end of the month
ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML
in their respective communities [CONTINUES]
Ben: more email sent to Gavin
Ralph: Tom reported at last week's WG telecon that he had sent
feedback
... but couldn't find it in email
... Tom will regenerate it if necessary
Ben: neither could I; Tom though he'd sent feedback but we're not able
to find it
ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [DONE]
ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in
XHTML 2 [CONTINUES]
Ben: there is not yet a public URI for the XHTML2 draft, correct?
Steven: correct, the current document is Member-only
<Steven> [12]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/
[12] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/
Ralph: it's only a problem if the HTML WG doesn't want those
restricted links named in our public forum
Steven: posting those URIs is not a problem for the HTML WG
ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and
pre-XHTML2 [DONE]
ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to
RDF-in-HTML problem [DONE]
<benadida>
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032
<benadida>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr
/0004.html
[14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0004.html
Ben: action done, as question was asked
ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback
ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to
Steven and Mark (use cases) [CONTINUES]
Ben: I have a [15]work-in-progress
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-04-11-use-cases.html
Ben: I hope to add English descriptions of the goal of the community
for each case
... I will provide RDF/XML examples
... hoping that Steven and Mark will provide the XHTML2 serialization
Mark: yep
XHTML2 - RDF/A
Mark: Steven and I have a number of sample documents we have been
using
... we'd like someone else's documents to check as well
<Steven> (e.g. RSS in XHTML)
Ben: it would be nice to have some tests that combine RSS, FOAF, and
Dublin Core
Steven: Last Call WD now hinges on getting the schema up-to-date
... specifically, we discovered our schema for XForms was out of date
Ben: will the RDF Schema hold you up?
Steven: no, that can be done as a Note
Mark: I started to reply to some of last week's bnode comments
<MarkB_> [16]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168
[16] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168
<Steven> (Note that the rdf/a draft is now in W3C space)
Mark: see [17]Creative Commons example in rdf-a.html
... why would this example (section 6.1) mean anything but an
anonymous node?
... the only thing you can't do is refer to this node from outside the
document
... from the HTML side, you'd argue that id is creating anonymous
nodes
... from the RDF side, what we want is a way to express anonymity
... we already have about
... and html:id
... so why do we need another mechanism?
... if you are really creating an external identifier use about,
otherwise use id
... this makes most things be 'anonymous' nodes unless you use about
... I've tried this for a few examples and it seems to work
[17] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168
Ben: is there no longer subject inheritance; does about no longer
inherit from parent?
Mark: Steven and I have gone back and forth about this, not yet
reflected in drafts
... we've concluded that anything that has only a property and object
should always be about the document itself
... so you no longer get nodes being bnodes by default as in the
previous draft
... see example in 5.2
... the link inside the blockquote would now have the document as
subject, not the blockquote
... Jeremy had commented that the inheritance rules were complicated
Steven: another advantage is that this is more natural for the HTML
community
Ralph: I suspect this is a much cleaner design
... it likely solves Jeremy's observation that the October draft
appeared to create many more triples than the prose implied
Ben: I think most document authors will not be explicitly interested
in anonymous nodes, so this design feels better
Steven: this design is reflected in the current XHTML2 editor's draft
... the rdf-a document is not in sync
Mark: if you wanted to talk about the person 'Ben' in example 6.1, you
could add <p about='[18]http://ben.adida.net'>
[18] http://ben.adida.net'%3E/
<Steven> Oh, I see; OK I agree
Mark: anonymous nodes don't have any significance to HTML authors
Steven: I posted an example to the HTML WG that I thought explained
this
... e.g. referring to a table of contents document that does not yet
exist
Ralph: I can't imagine a case where it would be bad for nodes to have
identifiers
Mark: I'm not suggesting that all nodes should have identifiers
Steven: this might undermine the URL mechanism
Mark: the difference is that in HTML the fragment identifier refers to
a part of a document but in RDF the interpretation would be a node
ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node
with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment
refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID)
Ralph: Ralph: What's the schedule for this new XHTML document in W3
space?
Mark: Mark: it requires some rewriting
Ralph: is [19]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html a copy of the
[20]October RDF-A document?
[19] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html
[20] http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html
Mark: yes
Ralph: can the RDF-A module be made part of XHTML2 in such a way that
it can be normatively referenced within XHTML2 spec and still reusable
by other non-HTML vocabularies?
Mark: good idea; I will think about it
Ralph: Another possible path is to combine RDF/A and metainformation
module prose
... an HTML author needs this to make sense to them
... pieces of RDF/A formalism interspersed can be included
Mark: Mark: earlier drafts did just that (beginner's guide to triples)
... HTML authors have been using LINK and META for years. This new
approach is easy to understand.
Ralph: Ralph: we're so close; some formalisms are important and we can
educate people
GRDDL
Ben: we'll continue to look for feedback from TomB and Gavin
... Creative Commons really wants people to use the RDF/A mechanism in
HTML4 and XHTML1
... but we don't want this to delay the XHTML2 work at all
Mark: the only missing feature for the Creative Commons example is
qnames
... the about attribute is new and 'name' became 'property' within
meta but the CC examples don't use these
Ben: if XHTML1 with the RDF/A Creative Commons example can be
validated, that's what we'd like
... Creative Commons would like an HTML4 solution that looks a lot
like the XHTML2 solution
Ralph: the whole of GRDDL may not necessary for a number of use cases
... if we can't find anyone who needs the whole thing
Ralph: if we cannot find a community who wants the full generalization
of GRDDL perhaps the specific subset of the RDF-A/XHTML2 solution that
can be made to work in HTML4 is an approach more acceptable to
implementors?
Ben: even if GRDDL is determined not to be essential to RDF-in-XHTML,
I believe it could be useful to other Semantic Web applications and
the SWBPD WG may still wish to consider it
next meeting 26 April
Summary of Action Items
ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to
Steven and Mark (use cases)
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback
[recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1)
any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a
fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID)
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action09]
ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in
XHTML 2
[recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML
in their respective communities
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and
pre-XHTML2
[recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action05]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
[DONE] ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to
RDF-in-HTML problem
[recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
[End of minutes]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action07
[22] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action01
[23] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action09
[24] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action04
[25] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action02
[26] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action05
[27] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action03
[28] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action06
_________________________________________________________________
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Received on Tuesday, 12 April 2005 16:10:00 UTC