- From: Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com>
- Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:08:18 +0100
- To: Ralph Swick <swick@w3.org>, Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>
- Cc: "public-pwe@w3.org" <public-pwe@w3.org>
Rachel, I'm cisgender, so cannot offer an opinion based on the lived experiences of someone who is not, but with that said, I wonder if removing any mention of Tal's pronoun preferences could be a form of exclusion itself? If Tal's persona is the only one not to mention either pronouns or pronoun preferences, it treats it differently from the other personas. From my own experience as a disabled person, being treated differently on account of my disability is the opposite of being included - and so I think it may be the same here? If references to pronouns and/or preferred pronouns were to be removed from all personas, it would not embrace individuality and it would fail to recognise that people do have preferred pronouns. Again, I wonder if failing to recognise someone for who they are, even in representative forms like personas, is the opposite of being included? Whilst it may be true that recognition and equal treatment of people who are non-binary is not a part of all cultures, the same is true for disability - yet W3C has never shied away from representing people with different disabilities. I wonder why it should be different for gender identity? Whilst it is also true that translation of certain terms and concepts can be difficult, neither is it impossible, and we have received support for changes to the way we represent people in our work from many members of the W3C community - including those who speak languages other than English. More than anything, I urge you to engage with people for whom gender neutrality is a lived experience - the rest of us, including me, have no ability to offer anything more than our best guess. Léonie. On 30/03/2021 21:56, Ralph Swick wrote: > > > On 2021-03-30 03:42 PM, Léonie Watson wrote: >> + PWE (since IDCG merged with PWE). >> >> Rachel, >> >> Thank you for asking us about this. Unfortunately, PWE met today and >> will not for another two weeks, so it's unlikely that we'll be able to >> provide any useful guidance before Thursday. >> >> >> Léonie. >> >> On 30/03/2021 19:25, Rachael Bradley Montgomery wrote: >>> Hello again, >>> >>> Michael recommended I add Tzviya to this question as well, which I've >>> done as well as adding Michael. >>> >>> I welcome any thoughts on this though I would like to avoid delaying >>> the publication of Making Content Usable if possible. >>> >>> Thank you all, >>> >>> Rachael >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 2:22 PM Rachael Bradley Montgomery >>> <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org >>> <mailto:rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> The Coga taskforce included Tal, a gender neutral persona, in the >>> persona set in Making Content Usable. We also included a statement >>> "Tal likes to be referred to by name (no pronouns) or as >>> they/them/theirs." We leaned heavily on using Tal's name with a few >>> pronouns mixed in. We did not include this preference statement in >>> any other persona. >>> >>> The AGWG has weighed in suggesting that we remove all pronouns from >>> the Tal persona along with the pronoun preference statement. >>> The persona would only refer to Tal as Tal. The reasoning is that it >>> would aid in translation and understanding within a worldwide >>> audience while still keeping a gender neutral persona in the set. > > As an individual still very much trying to become better informed in > this area it seems to me that this question of translating > culturally-sensitive language is one W3C should not side step. > > I found the following resource in the IDCG reading list informative: > > Pronouns: Why Do They Matter? > > https://www.sutori.com/story/pronouns-why-do-they-matter--z4tezeXC2EGCtecfeD14DnXi > > > That resource does not even hint at the translation challenge. But > certainly it's as much a social error to incorrectly translate a > gendered pronoun as it is to mistakenly use an English one, even if one > is prepared to be more forgiving in the former case. > > If there's no clear answer in the community yet, I'm inclined to > encourage AGWG to publish with Tal's pronouns as a use case to seed a > wider discussion when translators ponder what best to do. > > -Ralph (he/him, and a still-learning person) > >>> A >>> number of other options were discussed but that suggestion had the >>> most backing though not unanimous. >>> >>> COGA would like to resolve this question at Thursday's COGA meeting >>> and would like guidance from IDCG. If possible, would you let us >>> know your thoughts or guidance before Thursday? I realize this is a >>> very short turn around but I'm hoping you have an existing resource >>> that W3 uses for this that you can point me to. If that is not >>> possible, would you let us know when you would be able to respond? >>> >>> If it helps to provide context, you can read the minutes from >>> today's AG meeting <https://www.w3.org/2021/03/30-ag-minutes.htm> >>> Here is the link to the Tal persona that went to review >>> <https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/consistency_checks/content-usable/index.html#tal-a-student-who-has-dyslexia-and-impaired-eye-hand-coordination>. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you so much for any guidance or insights you can provide. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Rachael >>> -- Rachael Montgomery, PhD >>> Director, Accessible Community >>> rachael@accessiblecommunity.org >>> <mailto:rachael@accessiblecommunity.org> >>> >>> "I will paint this day with laughter; >>> I will frame this night in song." >>> - Og Mandino >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rachael Montgomery, PhD >>> Director, Accessible Community >>> rachael@accessiblecommunity.org <mailto:rachael@accessiblecommunity.org> >>> >>> "I will paint this day with laughter; >>> I will frame this night in song." >>> - Og Mandino >>> >> -- Director @TetraLogical https://tetralogical.com/
Received on Wednesday, 31 March 2021 11:09:34 UTC