Minutes of 2022-03-09 PCG meeting

Hi all


Thanks for joining the meeting today.

I am not sure why could not get the minutes link work for today's 
meeting so here is a manual copy&paste version.

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Present: gpellegrino, wolfgang, CharlesL, tzviya, Hadrien, rickj, 
Bill_Kasdorf, sue-neu, mateus, wendyreid, zheng_xu

Chair: zheng_xu

Scribe: Wolfgang


[11:04]==CharlesL[~Adium@79c2f29d.public.cloak] has joined#publishingcg
[11:04]<CharlesL> present+
[11:04]<tzviya> present+
[11:04]<Hadrien> present+
[11:05]<wolfgang> zheng: Agenda: task force update
[11:05]<wolfgang> ... anyone from A11Y TF?
[11:05]==mateus[~uid269381@79c2f29d.public.cloak] has joined#publishingcg
[11:05]*mateusis in another meeting and will join as soon ASAP
[11:06]<wolfgang> CharlesL: how to display A11Y metadata to libraries - 
survey from EDRLAB - came up with language issues (converting our doc to 
French)
[11:07]<wolfgang> ... concerned about MARC records - no crosswalk from 
schema.org to ONIX and MARC
[11:07]<wolfgang> ... A11Y summary best practices
[11:08]<wolfgang> Topic: Update for Documentation
[11:08]==rickj[~rickj@79c2f29d.public.cloak] has joined#publishingcg
[11:08]<rickj> present+
[11:09]<wolfgang> tzviya: Dan working with group from MDN - try to 
understand styling and get info on initial work of MDN - waiting for 
feedback from MDN on styling - has a small group
[11:10]<wolfgang> Topic: use case template
[11:11]<wolfgang> zheng: demonstrates how to use the "use case template" 
in Github repo
[11:12]<CharlesL> s/to ONIX and/and ONIX to/
[11:13]<wolfgang> ... you don't need to fill out all parts - decisive 
part " as a {role} I would like {do sth} so that {goal}"
[11:14]<wolfgang> zheng: you could use it and we could discuss how it 
works for you? Any question?
[11:15]<wolfgang> ... we hope we can have more use cases - idea ist to 
break down large goals to smaller details and thus be able to move forward
[11:16]<wolfgang> Topic:https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/3
[11:16]<wolfgang> EPUB for Education
[11:17]<wolfgang> zheng: refers to EDUPUB Alliance - domain-specific 
descriptive vocabulary
[11:17]<tzviya> q+
[11:17]*Zakimsees tzviya on the speaker queue
[11:17]<wolfgang> ... need for some EPUB profile for educational publishing
[11:19]<zheng_xu> q+
[11:19]*Zakimsees tzviya, zheng_xu on the speaker queue
[11:19]<rickj> q+
[11:19]*Zakimsees tzviya, zheng_xu, rickj on the speaker queue
[11:19]<wolfgang> tzviya: I don't think EPUB for education will have a 
future - exploring with Wendy about manifest for education - I will talk 
to Mateus who has done a lot of work - we should focus on identfying use 
cases in this domain
[11:20]<wolfgang> ... I will comment on this issue
[11:20]<tzviya> ack me
[11:20]*Zakimsees zheng_xu, rickj on the speaker queue
[11:20]*mateussorry all, my team is in the middle of a complicated 
production release and I probably won't be able to join in the next few 
mins -- following the IRC chat
[11:21]<wolfgang> zheng: EPUB for education - large gap between EPUB and 
education - we don't have a list of requirements or use cases - I agree 
that we should collect use cases and build up from that - perhaps have a TF
[11:21]<wolfgang> tzviya: I need some time to define how to proceed
[11:22]*tzviyarecruits rickj :)
[11:22]<wolfgang> rickj: interest in discussing education needs - happy 
to volunteer in a TF - zero interest in EDUPUB
[11:23]<wolfgang> susanNeuhaus: I'm interested too to participate
[11:24]<wolfgang> Topic:https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/6
[11:25]<wolfgang> Locators, fragment identifiers, deep linking:
[11:26]<wolfgang> zheng: ask for use cases -
[11:27]<zheng_xu> q+
[11:27]*Zakimsees zheng_xu, rickj on the speaker queue
[11:27]<rickj> ack me
[11:27]*Zakimsees zheng_xu on the speaker queue
[11:27]<wolfgang> tzviya: five years ago - a lot of this info is still 
relevant and useful - I think we need to define what we want to 
accomplish - define some params before
[11:28]==sue-neu[~sue-neu@79c2f29d.public.cloak] has joined#publishingcg
[11:29]*tzviyawaves to sue-neu
[11:30]<wolfgang> zheng: I found it difficult to locate an item in a 
book - several other tickets that refer to these problems - probably it 
makes sense to collect more use cases - label "selector" already available
[11:31]<wendyreid> q+
[11:31]*Zakimsees zheng_xu, wendyreid on the speaker queue
[11:31]<wolfgang> ... perhaps a selector/identifier TF to collect use 
cases - would anyone work with me
[11:31]==Bill_Kasdorf[~Bill_Kasdorf@79c2f29d.public.cloak] has 
joined#publishingcg
[11:31]<Bill_Kasdorf> present+
[11:32]<wolfgang> wendy: we have use cases - locator TF of WG already 
put together such use cases
[11:32]<wendyreid>https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/locators/#use-cases
[11:32]<sue-neu> present+
[11:32]<wolfgang> ... pretty comprehensive, though we might have misses 
some use cases
[11:32]<wendyreid> ack me
[11:32]*Zakimsees zheng_xu on the speaker queue
[11:32]<Hadrien> q+
[11:32]*Zakimsees zheng_xu, Hadrien on the speaker queue
[11:33]<wolfgang> tzviya: selector question, different form identifier 
question - we should understand the scope of the problem we want to solve
[11:34]<CharlesL> q+
[11:34]*Zakimsees zheng_xu, Hadrien, CharlesL on the speaker queue
[11:35]<wolfgang> wendy: what locators are is highly contextual - 
search, indexing, cross-references in a text book
[11:36]<tzviya> +1 Hadrien
[11:36]<wolfgang> hadrien: big topic - we should avoid to define how to 
refer to an EPUB (it's not on the Web!) is related to another EPUB - 
very EPUB-specific stuff such as CFI - we should find sth that is robust 
and works for the Web
[11:37]<zheng_xu> q+
[11:37]*Zakimsees zheng_xu, Hadrien, CharlesL on the speaker queue
[11:37]<wolfgang> ... should work on the Web, in EPUB and in PDF - it's 
a difficult issue
[11:37]<tzviya> ack zhe
[11:37]*Zakimsees Hadrien, CharlesL on the speaker queue
[11:37]<tzviya> ack Hadrien
[11:37]*Zakimsees CharlesL on the speaker queue
[11:37]<tzviya> ack CharlesL
[11:37]*Zakimsees no one on the speaker queue
[11:38]<wolfgang> CharlesL: in RS call with epubtest - seen a web 
version for Colibrio - got annotations and bookmarks working based on 
CFI - also accessible
[11:39]<wolfgang> ... maybe potential solution for EPUBs
[11:40]<Hadrien> q+
[11:40]*Zakimsees Hadrien on the speaker queue
[11:40]<wolfgang> zheng: when I select an item in text - the current CSS 
selector spec or annotation spec doesn't fulfill my needs - target are 
not elements, but text nodes or region of an img
[11:41]<wolfgang> ... highlight or select an item in a web site for the 
purpose of annotation - web browsers cannot open EPUB directly, but 
there are web services able to do that
[11:42]<wolfgang> ... see to find some aspect in this topic where we 
might work on - how can we scope it?
[11:43]<wolfgang> ... each solution is based on a specific RS, but no 
standard or common usage
[11:43]<tzviya> ack ha
[11:43]*Zakimsees no one on the speaker queue
[11:43]<CharlesL> s/Colibrio/Colibrio by Lars/
[11:45]<wolfgang> hadrien: three fragment identfiers (1) xml id (2) t 
fragment (timestamp) (3) text fragments (implemented in Chrome - URL - 
also in Google Search)
[11:45]<wolfgang> ... a lot of people can use it today if available in 
Chrome
[11:46]<wolfgang> ... pretty robust - selecting text works - CFI super 
EPUB-specific and breaks
[11:46]<wolfgang> ... use already invented solutions instead of 
inventing new ones
[11:47]<wolfgang> zheng: if we have an implementation we should check 
whether we could not use it
[11:48]<wolfgang> hadrien: w3c media fragment - able to identify a 
region in images - not implemented in browsers - TripleIF to reference a 
part of an image
[11:49]<wolfgang> tzviya: TripleIF interesting project - Benjamin knows 
a lot about it
[11:50]<wolfgang> zheng: can we share a locator, selector, annotation 
between different RS - maybe we should agree on sth common?
[11:50]<tzviya>https://iiif.io/api/image/3.0/
[11:51]<Hadrien> q+
[11:51]*Zakimsees Hadrien on the speaker queue
[11:51]<wolfgang> zheng: if we agree with a certain behaviour, we could 
get a sense of a locator - based on existing technology
[11:52]*tzviyasees Hadrien
[11:53]<tzviya> ack Hadrien
[11:53]*Zakimsees no one on the speaker queue
[11:53]<wolfgang> zheng: load a free book with identifier - how can we 
define some locator/selector to highlight part of it for any RS -
[11:55]<wolfgang> hadrien: a lot of work - agreeing on a locator = huge 
amount of work - defining the underlying technology is very tricky - it 
might be easier if we use the Publishing Manifest - would be cautious 
and if yes, split the issue up in smaller issues
[11:56]<wolfgang> tzviya: would agree with Hadrien - focus on what the 
browser offers, use the work of the locators' TF and start with that - 
we can't enforce interop between RS + browsers
[11:57]<wolfgang> ... annotations will be supported in publications on 
the browser, not in the browser as such
[11:59]<wolfgang> zheng: how to make annotation - more consistent 
behaviour between RS - maybe we can discover some small stuff to start 
with - a lot of EPUB extensions for the browser already extant - 
situations has changed
[12:00]<wolfgang> ... maybe discuss that for open license reading 
systems - will send an email to the list

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Cheers,

-- 
Zheng Xu

Chief Executive Officer
Gardenia Corp
https://gardenia-corp.com/