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Re: OCF for Packaging (was Re: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14)

From: Benjamin Young <byoung@bigbluehat.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:37:29 +0000
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>, Brady Duga <duga@google.com>
CC: Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>, Wendy Reid <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <DM5PR06MB34013014D48E11E04743E026B2A60@DM5PR06MB3401.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Hey Leonard,

I think Apache OpenOffice and LibreOffice use OASIS OpenDocument Format--which differs from OPC...but is still a zip file with an XML file + "stuff":

OpenDocument is also an ISO standard: ISO/IEC 26300

While OPC is ECMA-376 and ISO/IEC 29500-2:2012

However, all of these .zip formats are mostly about moving the "collection" of content to it's destination where it's mostly extracted (often "internally") and then consumed vs. a media format like MPEG4 or M4B (MPEG4 4 Books) which are deliberately media focused.

So far, though, none of these seem to provide an obvious incentive for browser use/consumption. Perhaps we should take a step back and define the expectations for the packaging format?





From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 10:10 AM
To: Ivan Herman; Avneesh Singh; Brady Duga
Cc: Garth Conboy; Wendy Reid; W3C Publishing Working Group
Subject: Re: OCF for Packaging (was Re: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14)

OH, I wasn’t aware of that – but it does make sense (just as EPUB itself is under a CG).

So then to use OCF, we’d need to (just as we are talking about with EPUB 3.2) move it to a WG and REC track along with the changes.  And yes, as @Brady<mailto:duga@google.com> points out, that’s work!!

IF we wanted a ZIP-based container, which doesn’t have the problems of OCF, and is an open standard that we can refer to, then I would recommend OPC (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Packaging_Conventions >), as I did in the github issue thread…OPC is used by OOXML/OpenOffice as well as ODF (MSOffice) and others.  While being an ISO standard (and thus having Ivan’s paywall concerns), it also exists as an ECMA specification which is freely available.


From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:52 AM
To: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
Cc: Brady Duga <duga@google.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>, Wendy Reid <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: OCF for Packaging (was Re: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14)

On 11 Dec 2018, at 05:23, Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>> wrote:

The IDPF submissions to W3C are CG reports and do not have status of Standard.

So, if IDPF’s OCF (now under W3C) is developed in CG, would there be some way to refer it in audio WP?

Per process this would be fairly difficult I'm afraid


With regards


From: Brady Duga

Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 9:25

To: Leonard Rosenthol

Cc: Garth Conboy ; Reid, Wendy ; W3C Publishing Working Group

Subject: Re: OCF for Packaging (was Re: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14)

OCF *is* an ISO spec: https://www.iso.org/standard/63569.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iso.org%2Fstandard%2F63569.html&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392497688&sdata=0DIQBoeStXAtXCGuzZuEuYN1uR2tEkA2QT05MB7SKic%3D&reserved=0> (does ISO call them specs?)

It is also an IDPF spec. It is not a W3C recommendation. Normatively referencing an ISO spec, or a W3C recommendation should be pretty easy - just point at them. So if we want to use OCF as is, we are fine - we can point at the ISO version. If we want to make changes this becomes harder. Sure, we can make the changes (after finding editors for the document), hammer OCF into a workable W3C draft, get our two implementations, test suite, vote, etc., assuming we can get buy-in for a new ZIP based rec. None of this is impossible (well, buy in for ZIP might be), but it is not simple. There had been some comments around referencing the ISO version, but I don't see how that will be possible since we need at least one change.

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 6:32 PM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> wrote:

I agree Brady…

But OCF is *NOT* an ISO spec, it’s an IDPF spec (see my link).  And I would assume that IDPF specs are owned nowadays by the W3C – so it’s changing a W3C spec.


From: Brady Duga <duga@google.com>
Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 5:31 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Cc: Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>, "Reid, Wendy" <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: OCF for Packaging (was Re: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14)

But changing one thing in an ISO spec is largely as difficult as changing N things. I think the difficulty is going from N == 0 to N > 0 when it comes to changes.

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:27 PM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> wrote:

Sorry I missed the meeting today, but I just reviewed the minutes (where I came up a few times ??).

As I have previously stated, I also would support a revision to OCF (call it whatever you want) that addresses the primary issue with it today – the removal of the mandatory mimetype file.  That file and it’s requirement to be the first file in the package/archive (<http://www.idpf.org/epub/31/spec/epub-ocf.html#sec-zip-container-mime<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.idpf.org%2Fepub%2F31%2Fspec%2Fepub-ocf.html%23sec-zip-container-mime&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392507693&sdata=jOEFa8R5i0uY%2BlYeHjlkdbFP0Y42SKXHmH5mww6Nm80%3D&reserved=0>>) is the only thing that you need to change with OCF to make it usable going forward.   And just changing the MUST to a MAY is all you need to do to make it happen – it’s that simple!


From: Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>
Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 2:42 PM
To: "Reid, Wendy" <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
Cc: W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 2:41 PM

Regrets.  In the air.

But, to paraphrase Trump (without yet have seen minutes for todays call [also in the air]), "I'm a zip/ocf man" (for this initial application).



On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 11:18 AM Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com> wrote:


Time and Date Link: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=AudioTF&iso=20181214T10&p1=250&ah=1<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeanddate.com%2Fworldclock%2Ffixedtime.html%3Fmsg%3DAudioTF%26iso%3D20181214T10%26p1%3D250%26ah%3D1&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392517702&sdata=c3vtja0S9dSDcNKatMeKoSMPghrgvkIaNJ57SCNUx5k%3D&reserved=0>

From: "Reid, Wendy" <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 1:42 PM
To: W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Subject: [AudioTF] Agenda 2018-12-14
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 1:41 PM

Hello everyone,

The Audiobooks Taskforce (AudioTF) will be meeting Friday, December 14th at 10AM EST [0]. Call details are at the bottom of the email.


  1.  Approve Minutes from last session [1]
  2.  Packaging re: PWG discussion of Dec 10 [2]
  3.  AOB

[0] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=AudioTF&iso=20181116T10&p1=250&ah=1<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeanddate.com%2Fworldclock%2Ffixedtime.html%3Fmsg%3DAudioTF%26iso%3D20181116T10%26p1%3D250%26ah%3D1&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392517702&sdata=SeEHOL7Dz8DF6dfBXS1Rd8N%2ByAjLRXkUgn5YqV0mN9g%3D&reserved=0>

[1] https://www.w3.org/2018/11/16-pwg-audio-minutes.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2018%2F11%2F16-pwg-audio-minutes.html&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392527712&sdata=3uLa36ZgfOAUxoYpNT6dDLlj%2F%2BuaIUr1XY13xO1O36I%3D&reserved=0>

[2] https://www.w3.org/2018/12/10-pwg-minutes.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2018%2F12%2F10-pwg-minutes.html&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392537717&sdata=oGbfBTcHr48VDwNiBzaI6dzZlmdPf9RwHGzbjb7gF98%3D&reserved=0>

Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android: https://rakuten.zoom.us/j/411076785<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frakuten.zoom.us%2Fj%2F411076785&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392537717&sdata=2m3MZG63xLEmLQkKuFoHLaJwMSQ3pZn53EaNHwgu7ZQ%3D&reserved=0>

Dial(a number based on your current location):
US: +1 669 900 6833 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 877 853 5257 (Toll Free) or +1 855 880 1246 (Toll Free)
Japan: +81 (0) 524 564 439 or +81 (0) 3 4578 1488 or +81 (0) 800 100 5040 (Toll Free)
Meeting ID: 411 076 785
International numbers available: https://zoom.us/u/aejYsJsyQT<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fu%2FaejYsJsyQT&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392547721&sdata=yECtn9DMVuGXVRfpmO3KoD7wYkU0cLK50ngz%2FLHtaiE%3D&reserved=0>



Ivan Herman, W3C
Publishing@W3C Technical Lead

Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FPeople%2FIvan%2F&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C5435ab479e644b7f726b08d65f5f194e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636801259392547721&sdata=AGq2FmPz8r12aL4xtSuOSj4CUMAVktRR0ut9Wb51qlM%3D&reserved=0>
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Received on Tuesday, 11 December 2018 15:37:56 UTC

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