- From: Graham Klyne <graham.klyne@zoo.ox.ac.uk>
- Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:39:22 +0100
- To: public-prov-wg@w3.org
On 27/03/2012 17:09, Luc Moreau wrote: > Hi, > As we discuss axioms of specialization/alternateOf > > is specializationOf reflexive? I don't think there's a single correct answer - it's a choice. Personally, I prefer the choice that it is reflexive; i.e. specializationOf(a,a) always holds. As I recall, that seems to simplify some other inferential machinery. #g -- > > Luc > > On 03/27/2012 03:52 PM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: >> alt1 and alt2 is good. It is fairly obvious (but should be explained >> in constraints) that alternateOf(a, b) indirectly implies >> alternateOf(b, a), as it implies >> >> specializationOf(a, X) >> specializationOf(b, X) >> >> and that implies: >> >> alternateOf(b, a) >> alternateOf(a, b) >> >> >> Would we need to say that if >> >> alternateOf(a, b) >> alternateOf(a, c) >> >> it does not imply: >> >> alternateOf(b, c) >> >> ? >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 22:46, Jim McCusker<mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: >>> Do they need fully contextualized names? Can they just be a and b, or x and >>> y? I'm pretty sure this isn't a qualified relation... >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> BTW, has somebody got better names for first and second alternate? >>>> >>>> >>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-alternate.html#alternate.firstAlternate >>>> >>>> >>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-alternate.html#alternate.secondAlternate >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26/03/12 22:38, Luc Moreau wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Paolo, >>>> >>>> I have updated the text to make it clear that the common entity does not >>>> need >>>> to be identified. >>>> >>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/21b96bf05727 >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> On 26/03/12 15:59, Paolo Missier wrote: >>>> >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/26/12 2:54 PM, Luc Moreau wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your very useful suggestions. >>>> >>>> I have drafted a revised section in a separate file >>>> >>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-alternate.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Does capture what has been discussed so far? >>>> >>>> I think so. To me it is important that when we say >>>> " They are both specialization of an (unspecified) entity." eg in the >>>> first example, it is clear that there no obligation to say anything about >>>> the common entity that they specialize. This, however, contrasts with the >>>> definition itself: >>>> " An entity is alternate of another if they are both a specialization of >>>> some common entity." >>>> It is not clear what to make of this defining property of alternates -- it >>>> gives an existential condition which is not actionable in general. So to me >>>> this is potentially confusing. >>>> >>>> >>>> Also, if specialization(a,b) is it the case that alternateOf(a,b)? >>>> >>>> no. I recall that we've been there before. At some point there was a >>>> discussion on specialization having a "top" and being transitive and >>>> therefore, with this additional inferences, everything would collapse. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> -Paolo >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> On 25/03/2012 17:16, Timothy Lebo wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 25, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Jim McCusker wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Graham Klyne<GK@ninebynine.org> wrote: >>>>> In my review comments which I think you have yet to get round to, I >>>>> question whether we actually need to have these concepts in the DM. >>>>> >>>>> Originally, by my recollection, they were introduced to explain the >>>>> relationship between provenance entities and (possibly dynamic) real world >>>>> things. With the looser description of the provenance model terms, I don't >>>>> see why this level of detail is needed in the data model. >>>> >>>> Then you don't recollect correctly. >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember IPV-of as the "relationship between provenance entities and >>>> (possibly dynamic) real world things", but specializationOf has developed >>>> into a more general association between entities that can include this >>>> original purpose. Indeed, eg-19 [1] is using alt and specOf for _exactly_ >>>> this original "frozen snapshot of changing things" notion -- applied to >>>> datasets and web services. >>>> >>>> Instead of digging up the archives, perhaps we can rally around altOf and >>>> specOf being the tools we use to associate (and make sense of) assertions >>>> made by the combinations of scruffy and proper provenance. >>>> (Like Simon's extension to Stian's BBC example). In addition, it's an >>>> incredibly useful construct for one's own "proper" modeling. >>>> >>>> [1] http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-19-derived-named-graph-attribution >>>> >>>> They were defined because there was an acknowledgement that there were >>>> multiple symbols that denoted a common thing in the world. Sometimes they >>>> reflected different aspects of the same thing (alternativeOf) and sometimes >>>> they had a subsumptive quality (specializationOf). >>>> >>>> >>>> I think these previous two statements contradict (and steer scarily >>>> towards owl:sameAs, which alt and specOf are certainly _not_) >>>> Different aspects of the same thing are not the same things. >>>> >>>> -Tim >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> -- >>>> Jim McCusker >>>> Programmer Analyst >>>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>>> Yale School of Medicine >>>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>>> >>>> PhD Student >>>> Tetherless World Constellation >>>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ----------- ~oo~ -------------- >>>> Paolo Missier - Paolo.Missier@newcastle.ac.uk, pmissier@acm.org >>>> School of Computing Science, Newcastle University, UK >>>> http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/Paolo.Missier >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim McCusker >>> Programmer Analyst >>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>> Yale School of Medicine >>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>> >>> PhD Student >>> Tetherless World Constellation >>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>> http://tw.rpi.edu >> >> >
Received on Tuesday, 27 March 2012 20:41:16 UTC