- From: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:11:59 +0100
- To: Jim McCusker <mccusj@rpi.edu>
- CC: Paolo Ncl <paolo.missier@newcastle.ac.uk>, Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
... does imply activity? you mean agency? Well, so it's simple, we can quote definition 1 which does not. Luc On 26/10/2011 22:05, Jim McCusker wrote: > Sense 2 does imply activity: > > http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/activity?region=uk > > noun (plural activities) > 1 [mass noun] the condition in which things are happening or being done: > there has been a sustained level of activity in the economy > busy or vigorous action or movement: > the room was a hive of activity > 2 (usually activities) a thing that a person or group does or has done: > the firm’s marketing activities > a recreational pursuit or pastime: > a range of sporting activities > 3 Chemistrya thermodynamic quantity representing the effective > concentration of a particular component in a solution or other system, > equal to its concentration multiplied by an activity coefficient. > > The other two senses do not refer to specific events, as we are (I > think) defining it here. > > Jim > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Yes, but the OED definition of activity does not imply agency. >> >> Professor Luc Moreau >> Electronics and Computer Science >> University of Southampton >> Southampton SO17 1BJ >> United Kingdom >> >> On 26 Oct 2011, at 20:24, "Jim McCusker"<mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: >> >> >>> My point is that a process execution might not have an agent. Not that >>> the agent is unknown, but that there is no controlling entity that >>> caused the process to occur. Reza mentioned the idea of natural forces >>> as agents. Maybe that's fine. I'm just not sure that that will be >>> understandable to people who aren't familiar with control systems >>> theory (like myself). >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't see what your objection is given the OED definition. >>>> >>>> This said I think you have your own view of what constitutes agency. >>>> >>>> In prov-dm, an agent is an entity capable of activity(see text). >>>> A definition agreed at F2f1. >>>> >>>> So, really, what's the issue? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Professor Luc Moreau >>>> Electronics and Computer Science >>>> University of Southampton >>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ >>>> United Kingdom >>>> >>>> On 26 Oct 2011, at 17:44, "Jim McCusker"<mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> No, there isn't. Stellar formation doesn't happen because of specific >>>>> agency, it just happens as an effect of gravity and having the right >>>>> mass in the right place at the right time. Things happen all the time >>>>> that have no agency - weather is a perfect example. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's what my OED says: >>>>>> >>>>>> A condition in which things are happening or being done. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there a notion of agency when we say "things are happening"? >>>>>> >>>>>> Luc >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/26/2011 03:56 PM, Jim McCusker wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Then not Event. But I think a key goal of our work is to find terms >>>>>>> that align best with the intended usage. This makes it much easier for >>>>>>> people who are coming to the model for the first time. It's perfect >>>>>>> that we've started with concepts, but these concepts are being >>>>>>> grounded in terminology, and that should align with the chosen, >>>>>>> default language. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If someone can give me a counterexample where an act or activity >>>>>>> doesn't have an implied actor, I'll withdraw my negative vote. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Paolo Ncl >>>>>>> <paolo.missier@newcastle.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we are in fact reading a bit too much into this. The intent was >>>>>>>> to simplify and harmonize the key terms used in the model. an agent may >>>>>>>> play a part in the activity, and we do have a way to express that, but that >>>>>>>> doesn't have to be (does that mean we cater to eastern cultures as well? :-) >>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>> But I strongly advise against using the term "event" to refer to >>>>>>>> activities that have a time duration. Events already have a clear role to >>>>>>>> play in the model, and have no duration. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, Paolo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 26 Oct 2011, at 15:05, Jim McCusker<mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> JimMcC indicated that activity implied a notion of agency. I am not >>>>>>>>>> familiar >>>>>>>>>> with this >>>>>>>>>> interpretation. Where does it come from? He suggests 'event', but this >>>>>>>>>> term >>>>>>>>>> is already in >>>>>>>>>> the document (and will be the subject of a future clarification >>>>>>>>>> proposal). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Activity (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/activity) is >>>>>>>>> defined as a quality or state of being active. If you look at the >>>>>>>>> examples at MW, all of them have some sort of agent or actor. There is >>>>>>>>> one natural process example, which is that a volcano is active. Even >>>>>>>>> in that case, the volcano is being considered an actor (which is fine >>>>>>>>> in discourse, but isn't technically correct). The root word, "act", >>>>>>>>> when used, requires an actor. An act can happen with an unknown actor, >>>>>>>>> but there is always an entity that is behind an act. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Using this word to describe all events (including natural events), >>>>>>>>> especially formally in a standard, gives the model a pre-scientific >>>>>>>>> bais (the idea that a prime mover is needed, because all events are >>>>>>>>> acts). Note that this is actually a western bais too, as many eastern >>>>>>>>> traditions do not require a prime mover. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm reading far too much into this, but if we're looking to >>>>>>>>> simplify, I would far prefer Event or Process (but with a clear >>>>>>>>> explanation that it is a occurrent, not a specification of an >>>>>>>>> occurrent) to Activity. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Jim McCusker >>>>>>>>> Programmer Analyst >>>>>>>>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>>>>>>>> Yale School of Medicine >>>>>>>>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>>>>>>>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> PhD Student >>>>>>>>> Tetherless World Constellation >>>>>>>>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>>>>>>>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>>>>>>>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau >>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 >>>>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 >>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >>>>>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Jim McCusker >>>>> Programmer Analyst >>>>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>>>> Yale School of Medicine >>>>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>>>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>>>> >>>>> PhD Student >>>>> Tetherless World Constellation >>>>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>>>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>>>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim McCusker >>> Programmer Analyst >>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>> Yale School of Medicine >>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>> >>> PhD Student >>> Tetherless World Constellation >>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>> >> >> > > >
Received on Wednesday, 26 October 2011 21:16:19 UTC