- From: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:03:25 +0200
- To: Jim McCusker <mccusj@rpi.edu>
- CC: Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>, "Deborah L. McGuinness" <dlm@cs.rpi.edu>
Hi Jim, Stephan: I would like to get a clear statement from RPI about this position. I would prefer to do this by consensus but will call for a vote if necessary. It's really a matter of getting an easy to understand common sense name and activity seems to have support. Thanks Paul On Oct 26, 2011, at 21:24, Jim McCusker <mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: > My point is that a process execution might not have an agent. Not that > the agent is unknown, but that there is no controlling entity that > caused the process to occur. Reza mentioned the idea of natural forces > as agents. Maybe that's fine. I'm just not sure that that will be > understandable to people who aren't familiar with control systems > theory (like myself). > > Jim > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote: >> I don't see what your objection is given the OED definition. >> >> This said I think you have your own view of what constitutes agency. >> >> In prov-dm, an agent is an entity capable of activity(see text). >> A definition agreed at F2f1. >> >> So, really, what's the issue? >> >> >> >> Professor Luc Moreau >> Electronics and Computer Science >> University of Southampton >> Southampton SO17 1BJ >> United Kingdom >> >> On 26 Oct 2011, at 17:44, "Jim McCusker" <mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: >> >>> No, there isn't. Stellar formation doesn't happen because of specific >>> agency, it just happens as an effect of gravity and having the right >>> mass in the right place at the right time. Things happen all the time >>> that have no agency - weather is a perfect example. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jim, >>>> >>>> That's what my OED says: >>>> >>>> A condition in which things are happening or being done. >>>> >>>> Is there a notion of agency when we say "things are happening"? >>>> >>>> Luc >>>> >>>> On 10/26/2011 03:56 PM, Jim McCusker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Then not Event. But I think a key goal of our work is to find terms >>>>> that align best with the intended usage. This makes it much easier for >>>>> people who are coming to the model for the first time. It's perfect >>>>> that we've started with concepts, but these concepts are being >>>>> grounded in terminology, and that should align with the chosen, >>>>> default language. >>>>> >>>>> If someone can give me a counterexample where an act or activity >>>>> doesn't have an implied actor, I'll withdraw my negative vote. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Paolo Ncl >>>>> <paolo.missier@newcastle.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we are in fact reading a bit too much into this. The intent was >>>>>> to simplify and harmonize the key terms used in the model. an agent may >>>>>> play a part in the activity, and we do have a way to express that, but that >>>>>> doesn't have to be (does that mean we cater to eastern cultures as well? :-) >>>>>> ) >>>>>> But I strongly advise against using the term "event" to refer to >>>>>> activities that have a time duration. Events already have a clear role to >>>>>> play in the model, and have no duration. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Paolo >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On 26 Oct 2011, at 15:05, Jim McCusker<mccusj@rpi.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JimMcC indicated that activity implied a notion of agency. I am not >>>>>>>> familiar >>>>>>>> with this >>>>>>>> interpretation. Where does it come from? He suggests 'event', but this >>>>>>>> term >>>>>>>> is already in >>>>>>>> the document (and will be the subject of a future clarification >>>>>>>> proposal). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Activity (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/activity) is >>>>>>> defined as a quality or state of being active. If you look at the >>>>>>> examples at MW, all of them have some sort of agent or actor. There is >>>>>>> one natural process example, which is that a volcano is active. Even >>>>>>> in that case, the volcano is being considered an actor (which is fine >>>>>>> in discourse, but isn't technically correct). The root word, "act", >>>>>>> when used, requires an actor. An act can happen with an unknown actor, >>>>>>> but there is always an entity that is behind an act. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Using this word to describe all events (including natural events), >>>>>>> especially formally in a standard, gives the model a pre-scientific >>>>>>> bais (the idea that a prime mover is needed, because all events are >>>>>>> acts). Note that this is actually a western bais too, as many eastern >>>>>>> traditions do not require a prime mover. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe I'm reading far too much into this, but if we're looking to >>>>>>> simplify, I would far prefer Event or Process (but with a clear >>>>>>> explanation that it is a occurrent, not a specification of an >>>>>>> occurrent) to Activity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Jim McCusker >>>>>>> Programmer Analyst >>>>>>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>>>>>> Yale School of Medicine >>>>>>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>>>>>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PhD Student >>>>>>> Tetherless World Constellation >>>>>>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>>>>>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>>>>>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Professor Luc Moreau >>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 >>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 >>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >>>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim McCusker >>> Programmer Analyst >>> Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics >>> Yale School of Medicine >>> james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 >>> http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu >>> >>> PhD Student >>> Tetherless World Constellation >>> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute >>> mccusj@cs.rpi.edu >>> http://tw.rpi.edu >>> >> >> > > > > -- > Jim McCusker > Programmer Analyst > Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics > Yale School of Medicine > james.mccusker@yale.edu | (203) 785-6330 > http://krauthammerlab.med.yale.edu > > PhD Student > Tetherless World Constellation > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute > mccusj@cs.rpi.edu > http://tw.rpi.edu >
Received on Wednesday, 26 October 2011 21:03:57 UTC