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Re: PROV-ISSUE-126: Section 5.3.3.2 "Process Execution Independent Derivation Expression." [Data Model]

From: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 19:52:47 -0500
Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Message-Id: <BDC1114A-29CE-4A53-AA3A-E68BA941F27C@rpi.edu>
To: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
I think the current treatment in the latest DM draft addresses the concerns I raised here.

I am happy to have it closed, but am leaving it open for Satya to close.

Regards,
Tim


On Nov 30, 2011, at 7:25 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:

> Hi Tim and Satya,
> 
> The derivation section has been entirely written, using a single relation wasDerivedFrom,
> and an optional attribute to identify its level of precision.
> 
> The terminology issues you have raised no longer apply.
> 
> Are you happy if we formally close this issue?
> Regards,
> Luc
> 
> On 11/16/2011 05:24 PM, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>> On Nov 8, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>> Hi Satya,
>>> 
>>> Responses interleaved.  I propose to close the issue, let me know if it shouldn't be the case.
>>> The recent proposal that was circulated will not use the heavyweight terminology pe-linked/pe-independent.
>>>     
>> It was difficult for me to grasp the "pe-linked" naming scheme in the DM, so I'm glad that it is being replaced.
>> 
>> What is the new terminology? "Activity Linked" ? I think this is more natural and like the change.
>> 
>> The anchors still reflect the old terminology.
>> e.g.
>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#pe-linked-derivationRecord
>> 
>> so does the ASN:
>> 
>> pe-linked-derivationRecord:= wasDerivedFrom ( identifier , identifier [, identifier , generationAttributeValues , useAttributesValues] )
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Tim
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   
>>> 
>>> On 16/10/2011 01:04, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>     
>>>> PROV-ISSUE-126: Section 5.3.3.2 "Process Execution Independent Derivation Expression." [Data Model]
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/126
>>>> 
>>>> Raised by: Satya Sahoo
>>>> On product: Data Model
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> This is a review comment for Section 5.3.3.2 "Process Execution Independent Derivation Expression." in the PROV-DM document (in mercurial fpwd head on Oct 15, 2011).
>>>> 
>>>> Issue: The current definition for "Process Execution Independent Derivation Expression." Section 5.3.3.2 states that:
>>>> "A process execution independent derivation expression is a representation of a derivation, which occurred by any means whether direct or not, and regardless of any activity in the world."
>>>> 
>>>> a) Does the above definition mean that an Entity instance e1 can be derived from another Entity instance e2 without the existence of "transformed from, created from, or affected by" activities?
>>>> 
>>>>       
>>> Ativities may or they may not exist.  We don't say anything about them, and we are not trying to link the derivation with any activity/activities.
>>>     
>>>> b)  If the above definition just means that there exists some PE linked to the derivation of e2 from e1, but a provenance application may not be aware of it, then how does it relate to the constraint "derivation-process-execution" defined for "Process Execution Linked Derivation Assertion" in Section 5.3.3.1?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>       
>>> No, that's not the intent. If you know there is one PE, and you don't know about it, wasDerivedFrom(e2,e1) is exactly capturing this notion.
>>>     
>>>> The current definition of "wasDerivedFrom" states that there was an activity of "transformed from, created from, or affected by" that links the two Entity instances, which is *summarized* by the wasDerivedFrom property. Hence, "Process Execution Independent Derivation Expression" is not consistent with current definition of derivation.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>       
>>> wasDerivedFrom is pe-linked, and PE independent derivation are not PE-linked. Idont' think there is any inconsistency here.
>>> 
>>> Luc
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     
>>   
> 
> -- 
> Professor Luc Moreau
> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
> 
> 
Received on Saturday, 3 December 2011 00:53:27 UTC

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