[Minutes] 2016-09-23

The minutes of today's meeting (TPAC day 2) are at 
https://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes and below as text

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

   Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference

23 Sep 2016

Attendees

    Present
           benw, bob, ivan, paulj, renato, sabrina, simonstey,
           victor_, victor, phila, michaelS

    Regrets
    Chair
           Ben

    Scribe
           paulj, victor, Serena

Contents

      * [2]Topics
          1. [3]POE.R.V.10 Add terms to the Roles of a Party
             Vocabulary
          2. [4]POE.R.V.11 New Party Category Vocabulary
          3. [5]POE.R.V.12 New Asset Category Vocabulary
          4. [6]POE.R.V.13 Temporal Constraint
          5. [7]POE.R.V.14 Using time spans in Temporal Constraints
          6. [8]POE.R.V.15 Reference to Source License
          7. [9]POE.R.E.01 Referring to external resources for
             defining payment fees
          8. [10]POE.R.E.02 Prove that a list of existing licenses
             can be expressed/encoded
          9. [11]Define rules for matching permissions/prohibitions
             against specific use cases
         10. [12]Define a language for controlling processing
             policies
         11. [13]Define processing rules for versioned policies
         12. [14]Support to auto-generate a policy from a template
             plus provided parameter values
         13. [15]Guidance on Rights Assignments through Aggregation
             and Derivation
         14. [16]Guidance on Specifying Subsets of Assets
         15. [17]Guidance on Conflicting Permissions
         16. [18]Make policies accessible by URL
         17. [19]POE.R.DM.06 Support Relative Time Constraint
         18. [20]Digital Publishing IG
         19. [21]POE.UC.22: Enhance discovery of library collection
             materials
         20. [22]POE.UC.24: Rights licensing data for e-book
             subscription services
         21. [23]POE.UC.25: Improve internal rights management
             systems (large book publishers)
         22. [24]POE.UC.26: Improve efficiency of foreign rights
             transactions (University Press)
         23. [25]POE.UC.27: Disambiguate access permission from
             copyright permission (University Press)
         24. [26]POE.UC.28: Library collection management and
             access
         25. [27]POE.UC.29: Rights licensing for custom textbook
             publishing (higher education publishers)
         26. [28]Formal Semantics Note
         27. [29]general data protection regulation - Sabrina
         28. [30]Horizontal Reviews
      * [31]Summary of Action Items
      * [32]Summary of Resolutions
      __________________________________________________________

    <renato> scribe: paulj

POE.R.V.10 Add terms to the Roles of a Party Vocabulary

    renato: Last ten vocab items to process now

    looking at POE-RV10

    victor_: need to specify both ends of compensation payment

    <simonstey> +q

    <ivan> trackbot, start telcon

    RESOLUTION: POE.R.V.10 accepted

    <renato> chair: Ben

POE.R.V.11 New Party Category Vocabulary

    victor_: As discussed yesterday, need to associate constraints
    with a party.
    ... this is in hand so the requirement is covered

    RESOLUTION: POE.R.V.11 satisfied

POE.R.V.12 New Asset Category Vocabulary

    RESOLUTION: POE.R.V.12 Satisfied

POE.R.V.13 Temporal Constraint

    <simonstey> scribe: paulj

POE.R.V.14 Using time spans in Temporal Constraints

POE.R.V.15 Reference to Source License

    victor_: There are terms such as Dublin Core source
    ... Could be used here

    renato: Many means of implementation not specified. Could be
    included.
    ... ...as examples.

    RESOLUTION: inlcude Dublin Core Source as example

    <simonstey> +q

    simonstey: Is this an annotation or something else?

    benws: An annotation

POE.R.E.01 Referring to external resources for defining payment fees

    <simonstey> [33]http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/#term-status ?

      [33] http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/#term-status

    victor_: Include not the fee but a reference to a fee
    ... as a URI for example

    benws: Is this core standard or an implementation issue?

    <simonstey> -q

    victor_: Semantics differ slightly

    renato: party has attribute "scope"
    ... can we can specify that something needs to be dereferenced
    before use
    ... so datatype isnt the amount but a reference to something
    external

    benws: Risk of creating two ways of doing the same thing

    victor_: can just change text to admit references as well
    ... MPEG-21 REL has this capability

    <simonstey> +q

    simonstey: should avoid having multiple ways of expressing the
    same thing

    <victor_> +q

    ben: accept scope and new operator to indicate reference

    victor_: Idea: as we now have template we could include there
    whether things are resources of references?

    renato: Not needed

    RESOLUTION: accept that scope should have a new operator to
    indicate reference

POE.R.E.02 Prove that a list of existing licenses can be
expressed/encoded

    RESOLUTION: To be included as part of a Note

Define rules for matching permissions/prohibitions against specific
use cases

    benws: Including minimum viable policy and ensure consistency

    sabrina: To be discussed as part of semantic checking

    <simonstey> which is usually the empty policy?

    <victor_> :)

    sabrina: Project forthcoming to crawl over multiple licences
    and return the least compatible constraint meeting all

    RESOLUTION: discuss later

Define a language for controlling processing policies

    benws: Out of scope?

Define processing rules for versioned policies

    benws: there are means of dealign with versioning

    sabrina: for interop, partners will need to agree version to be
    used

    <victor_> paulj: if things are different they cannot share the
    same identifier

    ivan: there are good techniques to handle this and it doesnt
    need to be normative in this dpcument

    benws: Useful to have a URI pointing to a reference to a policy
    which is the latest version

    RESOLUTION: included best practice in a non nomative note

    inlcude

    <victor_> +1

    <victor_> -q

    <victor_> q

Support to auto-generate a policy from a template plus provided
parameter values

    RESOLUTION: not needed now

Guidance on Rights Assignments through Aggregation and Derivation

    ???

    RESOLUTION: satisfied

Guidance on Specifying Subsets of Assets

    RESOLUTION: satisfied

Guidance on Conflicting Permissions

    benws: Does this actually make sense?

    sabrina: exceptions and overrides subject to rules of
    expression precedence

    ivan: Can become very complicated...

    benws: This is a request for guidance not normative treatment
    of conflict

    renato: There is already guidance on conflict

    RESOLUTION: No action

Make policies accessible by URL

    RESOLUTION: include best practice in a non nomative note

    <renato>
    [34]https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Requirements#POE.R.DM.06_S
    upport_relative_time_constraints

      [34] 
https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Requirements#POE.R.DM.06_Support_relative_time_constraints

    <simonstey> [35]https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/

      [35] https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/

    <simonstey> +q

POE.R.DM.06 Support Relative Time Constraint

    si

    simonstey: Can restrict timing by using time ontology

    benws: Need both event and time offset.OWL time will not
    suffice here.
    ... time itself isnt the problem

    ivan: Can we place a constraint on the whole ODRL graph?

    <simonstey> [36]https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/#scheduling

      [36] https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/#scheduling

    renato: need to be able to make constraints dependent on each
    other

    <simonstey> :meeting a :Interval ; :hasBeginning :meetingStart
    ; :hasDurationDescription :meetingDuration .

    <simonstey> :meetingStart a :Instant ; :inXSDDateTime
    "2006-11-05T14:00:00-8:00"^^xsd:dateTime .

    <simonstey> :meetingDuration a :DurationDescription ; :minutes
    45 .

    ren

    renato: can make scope of a constraint refer to an other
    constraint

    ivan: that is reification and something we are seeking to avoid
    ... this is a known recurring RDF problem

    <simonstey>
    [37]https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/#time:TimePosition

      [37] https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/#time:TimePosition

    simonstey: Note complexity that will result from addressing
    this

    ivan: Note that Provenance WG hit same problem.
    ... uses relationship including qualified version

    <renato>
    [38]https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-prov-o-20130430/#qualifiedAt
    tribution

      [38] 
https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-prov-o-20130430/#qualifiedAttribution

    ivan: Note complexity and that this issue isnt in the primer!

    <renato> 3 options -

    <renato> 1 - prov option

    <renato> 2 - constraint on constrain

    <renato> 3 - extend model (eg "embargo")

    BACK IN 30 MINS!!

Digital Publishing IG

    <renato> Guests: Tzviya Siegman ,Wiley

    <renato> Guests: Bill Kasdorf

    <simonstey> could you share the link also on irc?

    <Sabrina> Renato: Digital Publishing IG - Use Cases (Tzviya
    Siegman)

    <renato> link coming...

    <simonstey> thx

    <Sabrina> Bill: Book publishing industry worked on rights vocab
    and payments scheme however it never went anywhere

    <Sabrina> what they were trying to express was complex and the
    big trade partners kept adding complexity

    <tzviya> GoogleDoc with use cases
    [39]https://docs.google.com/a/bisg.org/document/d/15nbqGY20IIGb
    TQOzKxzw59TLzwfPpRZu-1KKA97phKg/edit?usp=sharing

      [39] 
https://docs.google.com/a/bisg.org/document/d/15nbqGY20IIGbTQOzKxzw59TLzwfPpRZu-1KKA97phKg/edit?usp=sharing

    <renato> Simon - does that link work?

    <Sabrina> ...They are interested in the rights associated with
    granular items (e.g. image in an article, postcast, excerpt
    from a book all in the one book)

    <simonstey> You need permission -> I requested access

    <tzviya> editable link
    [40]https://docs.google.com/a/bisg.org/document/d/15nbqGY20IIGb
    TQOzKxzw59TLzwfPpRZu-1KKA97phKg/edit?usp=sharing

      [40] 
https://docs.google.com/a/bisg.org/document/d/15nbqGY20IIGbTQOzKxzw59TLzwfPpRZu-1KKA97phKg/edit?usp=sharing

    <Sabrina> ... all coming from different sectors that all
    express their metadata differently

    <renato> Simon - I just emailed you the document as well

    <Sabrina> textbook publisher understands all of the metadata
    and all of the vocabs

    <simonstey> got it, thx

    <Sabrina> ...ODRL could be the common denominator

    <Sabrina> ..AP create a 1/4 of a million assets a day therefore
    you need machine readabiility

    <victor> (can anybody type the standards he just mentioned?)

    <renato> ideaAlliance PRISM

    <tzviya> JATS Journal Article Tag Suite

    <tzviya> JATS has a metadata header

    <tzviya> XMP metadata with images

    [41]https://jats.nlm.nih.gov/

      [41] https://jats.nlm.nih.gov/

    <Sabrina> ... plus image data, XMP also used

    <Sabrina> ... the need for the rights expression to travel with
    the asset

    <Sabrina> ... these various sectors need to understand that
    they need a standard model and vocab for specifying obligations
    and permissions

    <Sabrina> benws2: they can develop a profile

    <Sabrina> BISG are not usually technical they are contracts and
    rights people

    <Sabrina> tzviya: we should look at these use cases

    <Sabrina> benws2: author royalties are very important to TR

    <Sabrina> bill: who owns the rights are relevant and does
    result in the determination of who gets payment

    <Sabrina> tzviya: We should take a look at the use cases

POE.UC.22: Enhance discovery of library collection materials

    <renato> note: UC numbers will be updated ;-)

    <Sabrina> an important community that are often ignored are the
    library community

    <Sabrina> They live and die by semantics

    <Sabrina> Bill: This use case is about consistent metadata
    describing copyright

    <Sabrina> ... Rights data associated with a digital resource
    work should be able to convey the whether or notthat is
    included in a library collection should always include
    permissions and obligations for library-to-library sublicensing
    inter-library loan are granted.

    <Sabrina> ... interlibrary loan which relates to the digital
    resource as opposed to the physical book (where they own the
    book)

    <Sabrina> ... in the case of digital assets they license the
    book

    <Sabrina> benws2: Very similar to TR lots of assets and no idea
    how to license them

    <Sabrina> ... ODRL has a very limited way to express copyright
    it would be good to go through the resquirements to see how
    well copyright is adressed in ODRL

    <Sabrina> ... the idea to be able to reference items within
    items. As a standard we will not tell you how to identify your
    assets

    <Sabrina> bill: the publishing industry would really like
    inheritance

    <Sabrina> ... if you pull out an asset you need to pull out all
    the rights and sent them with the asset

    <Sabrina> benws2: are you talking about aggregation?

    <Sabrina> tzviya: Lets look at the later requirements e.g. who
    owns the copyright for chapter 2 along with all its subitems

    <Sabrina> Bill: another example is embargo - an image has no
    idea of time however it cannot be displayed until a particular
    date

    <Sabrina> ... another example is to create a video that they
    want to license a year later someone else wants to reuse that
    video but there is no way to know that they can't use it

    <Sabrina> tzviya: POE.UC.24: Rights licensing data for e-book
    subscription services

POE.UC.24: Rights licensing data for e-book subscription services

    <Sabrina> A number of opportunities exist for book publishers
    to sell works through subscription services, such as Scribd,
    Amazon Kindle Unlimited, and Playster, but they are unable to
    take advantage of these services because a consistent method
    for collecting and communicating subscription rights data has
    not been adopted within the industry

POE.UC.25: Improve internal rights management systems (large book
publishers)

    <Sabrina> Same use case just a different application

    <Sabrina> Bill: I don't need to use ODRL internally but I will
    use it for exchange

    <Sabrina> benws2: TR use it for text editing fields... It is a
    pull down of vocab.

POE.UC.26: Improve efficiency of foreign rights transactions
(University Press)

    <Sabrina> China wants to do Spanish for Dummies (language
    restrictions, internationalisation) same use case again just a
    different application

    <Sabrina> ... the expressions need to be language agnostic

    <Sabrina> tzviya: for publishing licensing in multiple areas is
    a very big area

    <Sabrina> Bill: model and vocab needs to be language agnostic

    <Sabrina> benws2: We will provide an extension model

    <Sabrina> Bill: It would be good to have language codes such as
    THEMA or ONIX

    <Sabrina> ... ONIX have a code, english word and a description

    <Sabrina> benws2: Wiley in New York have a UI in english, send
    the policy to China and they should be able to see it in
    Chinese

    <Sabrina> Bill: Books are priced differently depending on the
    country

    <Sabrina> ... its not just the rights to license it could also
    be is the purchaser allowed to by it in a particular country

POE.UC.27: Disambiguate access permission from copyright permission
(University Press)

    <Sabrina> tzviya: Difference between license and copyright

    <Sabrina> benws2: We need much more detail on this...

    <Sabrina> paulj: Rights expression languages are not really
    suitable for rights

    <Sabrina> tzviya: Can you provide more details on what you
    require?

    <Sabrina> renato: fair use is not something that we are going
    to express

    <Sabrina> Bill: Looking for the ability to specify rights but
    they could be superseded by copyright

POE.UC.28: Library collection management and access

    <Sabrina> Bill: Looking for a translation into ODRL

    <Sabrina> renato: We support this by promoting ODRL and
    marketing it so that there is an awareness of the outcomes of
    our work among these communities

POE.UC.29: Rights licensing for custom textbook publishing (higher
education publishers)

    <Sabrina> tzviya: Ability to build their own book from chapters
    from existing books and possible add their own content or
    something from the web

    <Sabrina> renato: can you give some more information on the
    subscription model?

    <Sabrina> tzviya: similar to the textbook use case... I
    subscribe to the service, they have books on HTML and I am only
    interested in 1 chapter...

    <Sabrina> At the moment this is not automated

    <Sabrina> Bill: You need a profile of the person, they are a
    student of a university and the university has a subscription

    <Sabrina> ivan: I try to look way ahead ... candidate
    recommendation . way the technology is proberly tested
    consistency and usability... you can not start thinking about
    it early enough. We have use cases, and a real community, in
    the future it would be good to ask that community to verify
    what we have done

    <Sabrina> ... The question is would BISG be willing to play
    that role when the time comes

    <Sabrina> Bill: In general yes, however it's hard to know if we
    will be able to get people to do all that you require

    <Sabrina> ... We should be able to get OCLC involved

    <Sabrina> renato: Do they have to show implementations or just
    confirmation that the model and vocab are ok

    <simonstey>
    [42]https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-prov-implementations-201304
    30/

      [42] https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-prov-implementations-20130430/

    <Sabrina> ivan: each working group defines their own criteria
    and asks the director if they are happy with our proposal

    <simonstey> prov-o exit criteria ->
    [43]https://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria

      [43] https://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria

    <Sabrina> Bill: It would be useful to know what the gaps are

    <Sabrina> tzviya: Journal articles are the most important to us

    <renato> POE thanks Tzviya and Bill

    <simonstey> break? or do we continue?

    <renato> 5 mins

    <simonstey> kk

    <victor> scribe: victor

Formal Semantics Note

    <simonstey> [44]https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-sem/

      [44] https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-sem/

    simon: We can take this specification as a reference for our
    spec
    ... second paragraph in section 1.1 is very clarifying
    ... formal semantics in ODRL can be stated as a set of
    description logic axioms, as well.
    ... this would naturally solve policy aggregation, conflict
    detection, etc. Enforcing is explicitly excluded.

    <simonstey>
    [45]https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-prov-sem-20130430/#addition
    al-axioms

      [45] 
https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-prov-sem-20130430/#additional-axioms

    simonstey: some conflicts can be avoided by declaring
    appropriate axioms.
    ... there are, for example, conflicts related to the duties or
    the constrains

    benws2: the work is around the question of validity.

    Sabrina: validity and conflicts.

    <renato> new member: Konstantopoulos, Stasinos

    Sabrina: a new ODRL member has much experience in formalizing.
    (who?)

    <renato> who is also interested

    ivan: how is the current charter?

    renato: only two documents to be Recommendation

    ivan: but you have also in mind about 4 notes. There may not be
    enough resources to actually edit the six documents.
    ... it is not tenable that one person can edit the documents in
    their own. also, renato, as chair, may not be that much
    involved.

    Sabrina: a newly funded project will provide working force

    ivan: only members of the WG can vote on the publication of the
    note

    renato: changes needed to write the two recommendations are
    limited, as we don't start from the scratch.

    victor: doing the formalization effort will improve the
    recommendations anyway

    ivan: i see other more urgent tasks, like moving from JSON to
    JSON-LD
    ... this group has a strong bias towards RDF, and we do not
    want to disband the web developers (JSON lovers)

    benws2: the value of ODRL for Thomson-Reuters is easing the
    task of validating compliance. For this regard, having a formal
    semantics would be a great value.

    ivan: no doubt about it. but can everything be accomplished?

    simonstey: (on additional logical implications, and how
    profiles can be improved if the note is made among other
    benefits)

    renato: in the whiteboard, lists the 6 documents

    (actually seven)

    ivan: there is much to be improved in the two recommendations
    as they are. for newcomers, it may not be so immediatly
    understandable
    ... they need a lot of editorial work to make them sellable

    benws2: when I first approached, it took me much time
    understanding ODRL.

    ivan: they had the same problem in the Web Annotations group,
    and they had to illustrate it with plentiful of examples

    benws2: the best practices may help at making things
    understandable

    renato: we are moving in this direction, moving examples up

    benws2: Renato, you should leave aside your years-experience
    and describe everything with new eyes
    ... 24 years of experience in this business are a heavy bag

    ivan: the annotations document is now an example of good
    quality

    <simonstey> lost you

    <simonstey> no one on webex

    <simonstey> back

    ivan: owl and xml is less important

    Serena: Renato should leave the lead on the model document
    re-engineering to me, as I have a fresher view than Renato.

    ivan: which are the other notes?

    renato: best practices would be examples

    ivan: why not in the github as naked examples?

    benws2: there are patterns in the practical expressions. The
    document would give context to the problem: "if this is your
    business model, this is the pattern"

    <renato> ACTION: serena review info model to support
    "annotation model" style examples [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action01]

      [46] http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Review info model to support
    "annotation model" style examples [on Serena Villata - due
    2016-09-30].

    benws2: there are many types of ODRL users. Some are 24 year
    old techies, some are oldies who should understand.

    victor: github repo may be useful for the ODRL mapping licenses

    ivan: what is linked data profile?

    victor: profile FOR linked data

    ivan: i personally find it very nice, but indeed of least
    priority

    benws2: I voluneer to edit the "Best practices".

    paulj: I volunteer to edit "Best practices" as well

    <simonstey> if we provide them, wouldn't they need to be
    audited/checked by a legal expert?

    victor: legal experts may differ, also. it is a matter of
    interpretatoin

    renato: we need a github repo of licenses

    Sabrina: we will contribute along our project

    RESOLUTION: We remove the ODRL Mapping Licences to a github
    repo referenced from the "Best Practices".

    Sabrina: (and victor and serena) We cannot work on everything
    at the same time, so we can postpone this activity

    <simonstey> break?

    <renato> yes

    <renato> 1 hr

    <renato> We are back

    <Serena> scribe: Serena

general data protection regulation - Sabrina

    Sabrina: I recently launched a new lab in Vienna
    ... general data protection regulation

    H2020 project accepted together with Ben

    <scribe> … new general data protection regulations to be
    represented and model them ODRL to built on top of them

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: two scenarios: (1) policies and transparency:
    who does what with my data
    ... (2) risk assessment for companies to address compliance
    checkinh
    ... examples of rules to have e.g., explicit consent
    ... who is doing what with the data
    ... model quite close to ODRL: constraints, actions, etc are
    the same
    ... you have obligations, and if you satisfy them then you're
    compliant
    ... parties: data subject -> party, other people like data
    protection officers, etc
    ... asset is personal data
    ... action is all regarding processing in the EU and outside
    the EU
    ... sometimes you have dispensation e.g., unless it is in the
    child interest etc
    ... the policy is the general data protection regulation, but
    we want the link to the articles, in each article there are
    many rules
    ... we will provide examples in n-triples

    <simonstey> +q

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: if you hava a duty, and you fulfill the duty
    then you have the permission to process the data

    Sabrina: asset is personal data

    <simonstey> there is a privacy type

    renato: is this another kind of policy type?

    Sabrina: this could be seen as a new policy type
    ... the H2020 project aims at designing a system to check
    compliance
    ... we will have legal guidance

    renato: do you have inheritance among policies?

    <simonstey> odrl doesn't allow for multi-inheritance

    Sabrina: regulations contains articles, paragraphs and then
    duties

    <renato> odrl can do "One Parent Policy to one or more Child
    Policy entities"

    renato: are there actions from this project?

    <victor> ...

    <simonstey> which doesn't mean that all of those subpolicies
    belong together

    benws2: every information with personal information can be the
    "input" for this project

    renato: new policy type -> regulation

    <simonstey> how does the privacy type relate to all of that?

    <simonstey> [47]http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/#term-Privacy

      [47] http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/#term-Privacy

    victor: for these policies it is important to keep provenance

    <simonstey>
    [48]https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2.1/#section-21

      [48] https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2.1/#section-21

    [49]https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2.1/#section-21

      [49] https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2.1/#section-21

    <renato> action sabrina define a new Regulation Policy Type

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Define a new regulation policy
    type [on Sabrina Kirrane - due 2016-09-30].

    <simonstey> do we need the privacy type then actually?

    <renato> yes, perhaps for more personal privacy polices

    <simonstey> you dropped from webex

    renato: use cases and requirements
    ... R.DM 04

    [50]https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Requirements#POE.R.DM.04_S
    upport_versioning_policies

      [50] 
https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Requirements#POE.R.DM.04_Support_versioning_policies

    scribe: what is the action here?
    ... do we want to be back to the group?
    ... any other comment or question about UCR?
    ... jason-LD as undelines by Ivan has to be considered

    ivan: having both jason and jason-ld encodings is superflous
    ... json-ld should be enough
    ... we should forget xml/html
    ... is there a fresh market for pure xml?

    * thanks simonstey *

    ivan: what we do now for the annotation, we actually have a
    test suite with all examples converted from json-ld into turtle

    benws2: do we have to show that there are implementations using
    xml?
    ... we can ask in the community group

    <renato> ACTION: renato ask WG/CG - who is using plain XML?
    [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action02]

      [51] http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Ask wg/cg - who is using plain
    xml? [on Renato Iannella - due 2016-09-30].

    ivan: I think that json and json-ld are the same
    ... and we all have to be careful to the discussion about using
    the @id or not, etc

    <renato> action stuart Can we only have a JSON-LD
    serialisation? Will it impact RighstML?

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Can we only have a json-ld
    serialisation? will it impact righstml? [on Stuart Myles - due
    2016-09-30].

    ivan: each example needs to be encoded in json-ld in the
    information model
    ... is there a plain to have the vocabulary defined in owl?
    ... what's in the current model?
    ... it says RDF/OWL encoding
    ... somebody did make the RDF/OWL triple ontology
    ... don't show examples with rdf/xml

    <simonstey> +1 to ivan's point of view

    ivan: we should not include rdf/xml in w3c recommendations

    benws2: digital publishing people are claiming about the
    translation (e.g. in japanese), then this should be in the owl
    ontology

    victor: who is going to do the translations?

    ivan: we should not spend time on that

    victor: question about the ontology connected to the formal
    semantics, will it have the same set of axioms or a superset?

    <simonstey> agreed

    ivan: owl ontology normative or informative?

    Sabrina: Phil suggested to have two recommendations, with many
    of the items are not normative and other are

    ivan: if we say "yes" we need to have consistency proved by at
    least two tools
    ... which means that all the statements in all the examples
    would be consistent with the ontology etc

    victor: in favor of making it normaive

    ivan: we have to keep in mind that if we decide to go for a
    normative owl ontology than we will have to follow a certain
    process to prove its consistency

    Sabrina: then we will keep the non normative items right?

    ivan: on the one hand, for end users it seems strange not to
    have an owl ontology, on the other side having a normative
    ontology with non normative items…
    ... let's go for the normative but complete

    <renato> 15 min break

    <renato> we've back

    <benws2> We're about to restart.

    <benws2> nick/benws

    * :) *

    renato: dates for the next working draft?
    ... any other issue to be discussed in the last hour?
    ... profile seems a good way to show odrl is used
    ... there is a whole section about the profile

    <simonstey> +q

    benws2: there are different levels of profiles
    ... we can automate the validation of licenses, for that we
    need a formal semantics, these are different levels of profile
    (profile in a profike)

    simonstey: we have to be careful about the way profile works

    ivan: we have to define what this MUST means?
    ... in normative terms

    renato: there is no machine readable representation

    ivan: I should have the right to ignore it
    ... I would put all the statements in stronger terms, e.g.,
    "some requirements…" -> "we must document…" otherwise it is not
    normative

    <simonstey> a core set of concepts that MUST be provided/used
    by all profiles?

    ivan: why having two URIs?
    ... we're talking about an rdf model
    ... xml is a possible serialization, but the model itself is in
    rdf

    victor: the ontology plus the text is the proposal

    ivan: but the heart of it is just rdf
    ... don't use "deprecated" in the profile text

    renato: what about a profile being machine readable?

    benws2: it is optional, some profiles are incredible
    lightweight
    ... we should allow people to come to the level they prefer
    ... the best would be to point to some examples of profiles

    <simonstey> I dont think you should

    ivan: will SHACL become a rec?

    simonstey: next year probably

    renato: can I use it for reasoning?

    simonstey: non actually for reasoning
    ... you can use it to check the profiles

Horizontal Reviews

    ivan: horizontal review
    ... we have to ask the experts to review the document
    ... I'm not sure about security, but being a vocabulary I don't
    think it's an issue
    ... privacy issues
    ... internationalization
    ... in the annotation group, we made a mistake and we contacted
    them too late
    ... ideally we should have a model document by January to have
    a review in January
    ... not a final version but a reviewable one
    ... what we can do now is to look at the new version of the
    information model to avoid internationalization issues

    <renato> action phila propose date/time for the virtual meeting
    in Nov/Dec

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Propose date/time for the
    virtual meeting in nov/dec [on Phil Archer - due 2016-09-30].

    <renato> Proposed next F2F in March 2017

    <simonstey> lost you

    <renato> yes

    <simonstey> see you guys!

    <simonstey> bye bye

    <renato> thanks Simon!

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: renato ask WG/CG - who is using plain XML?
    [recorded in
    [52]http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: serena review info model to support "annotation
    model" style examples [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action01]

      [52] http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action02
      [53] http://www.w3.org/2016/09/23-poe-minutes.html#action01

Summary of Resolutions

     1. [54]POE.R.V.10 accepted
     2. [55]POE.R.V.11 satisfied
     3. [56]POE.R.V.12 Satisfied
     4. [57]inlcude Dublin Core Source as example
     5. [58]accept that scope should have a new operator to
        indicate reference
     6. [59]To be included as part of a Note
     7. [60]discuss later
     8. [61]included best practice in a non nomative note
     9. [62]not needed now
    10. [63]satisfied
    11. [64]satisfied
    12. [65]No action
    13. [66]include best practice in a non nomative note
    14. [67]We remove the ODRL Mapping Licences to a github repo
        referenced from the "Best Practices".

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________

Received on Friday, 23 September 2016 16:07:40 UTC