RE: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process problems

John, Now, you are asking a different question on a different topic.
You are now presenting arguments related to these 2 options for addressing 
the mappings for static tables.
Option 1: aria-interactive=false on grid element gets mapped to static 
table roles in a11y apis.
Option 2: Add a table role that gets mapped as static table in a11y apis.

Personally, I am not sure which is better. Given both have merit, option 3 
could be to support both. At the moment, consensus is leaning toward the 
aria-interactive option. After thinking through all that is needed for 
option 1 as I crafted the text for aria-interactive, I started thinking 
more like you -- that adding more roles may potentially be significantly 
simpler for both user agents and authors.

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com



From:   "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>
To:     Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS, 
Cc:     W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>, Richard 
Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Alexander Surkov 
<surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
Date:   05/19/2015 11:28 AM
Subject:        RE: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process 
problems



Matt,
 
How does an ARIA attribute that dynamically changes the effective role of 
some ARIA roles help?
 
If we know the effective roles we want people to use let?s just define 
them and make it easier for everyone to find and identify them.
 
Can you image telling a web developer learning accessibility that if you 
want a TD role in SVG, you must use the ROLE=GRIDCELL and then use 
aria-interactive=false on the parent ROLE=GRID element to create it?
 
Won?t most developers be scratching their head saying, why won?t they let 
me just use ROLE=TD.
Jon
 
From: Matthew King [mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 1:09 PM
To: Gunderson, Jon R
Cc: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats; Richard Schwerdtfeger; Alexander Surkov
Subject: RE: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process problems
 
John, I do not think a generic, concrete  widget role will help; it could 
make things worse.
For all practical purposes, you can already do that with role application 
... and it is problematic.
Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com



From:        "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>
To:        Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, 
Cc:        W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>, Alexander 
Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
Date:        05/19/2015 07:11 AM
Subject:        RE: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process 
problems




I suggest creating a ROLE=INTERACTIVE as a generic role to indicate an 
interactive element that cannot be described with current ROLE values.
 
Use ARIA labeling techniques to give the role and name/label and use 
aria-describedby to give a description of the interaction behavior.
 
Jon
 
 
 
From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Gunderson, Jon R
Cc: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats; Alexander Surkov
Subject: RE: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process problems
 
We also need this for SVG. We will have interactive parts of SVG drawings. 



Rich Schwerdtfeger

"Gunderson, Jon R" ---05/14/2015 04:40:07 PM---Alexander, It may be a good 
step toward custom roles, but is the wider web community ready for that

From: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>
To: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
Cc: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date: 05/14/2015 04:40 PM
Subject: RE: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process problems





Alexander,

It may be a good step toward custom roles, but is the wider web community 
ready for that step, will it make it easier or harder for development 
groups to understand and implement ARIA correctly?

Should this step be part of ARIA 1.1 when there are so many ARIA authoring 
issues with just ARA 1.0?

If anything I believe part of ARIA 1.1 should be trying to simplify and 
clarify the use of roles, properties, states and accessible 
name/description calculation, not making it more complex.

Jon




From: Alexander Surkov [mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 4:05 PM
To: Gunderson, Jon R
Cc: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
Subject: Re: aria-interactive and the authoring/debug process problems
 
I think of aria-interactive as one step forward to custom roles since it 
is a way to describe roles. I think I agree that new widget - new role 
approach would be preferable as the new role is completely spec'd out and 
reusable, but it probably doesn't work for the web diversity. 
To address the authoring errors problem, we may not allow to override 
interactive value on certain roles.
14 мая 2015 г. 3:35 PM пользователь "Gunderson, Jon R" <
jongund@illinois.edu> написал: 
I understand the desire to reduce the number of roles in ARIA, but I have 
concerns that using aria-interactive attribute to achieve this goal will 
probably be detrimental to learning, authoring and debugging.

Think of people looking at a DOM inspector and it says role=?gridcell?, 
but the accessibility API represents it as role=?td?.

What role does a validation or visualization tool report to the user (e.g. 
GRIDCELL or TD)?
If it is TD then the developer will not find a role=?td? in their DOM 
inspector view
If it is gridcell then the definition of gridcell has to be more 
complicated to discuss that it is sometimes interactive and sometimes 
static based on an ancestor role of aria-interactive.  It sounds simple, 
but I think this will cause a lot of authoring errors, debugging problems 
and messaging complexity.

I think role values should not be able to switch between interactive and 
non-interactive based on attribute values, that should be a fundamental 
part of a role.  ARIA is hard enough for developers to understand, making 
some roles change from interactive to non-interactive based on attribute 
values will add to the complexity of learning and using ARIA.

My two cents,
Jon