- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 14:16:40 -0400
- To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-aria-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
14 May 2015
[2]Agenda
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0078.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-aria-irc
Attendees
Present
tzviya, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, ShaneM,
fesch, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, James_Nurthen, jongund,
Matt_King
Regrets
Chair
Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Scribe
joanie
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Heads Up Items
2. [6]Heartbeat
3. [7]aria-interactive
4. [8]ARIA Extension Review
5. [9]Review Open Action Items and Issues
6. [10]Charter
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 14 May 2015
<scribe> scribe: joanie
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[12]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/00
78.html
[12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0078.html
Heads Up Items
RS: Janina, when are you reading to talk about
aria-describedat?
Janina: When you come back from vacation.
RS: I'll be on vacation for two weeks and will need a chair.
Heartbeat
RS: Issues?
MC: Not for this group.
... I did a bunch of cleanup to the documents.
... If I didn't think they were editorial, I pinged the
editors.
... Hopefully they'll be up later today.
RS: aria-interactive didn't make it right?
MC: Correct.
aria-interactive
<clown> s/ARIA Interactive/aria-interactive/g
<clown> g/ARIA Interactive/aria-interactive/
RS: Matt, anything you want to talk about?
MK: I guess we didn't make the cut, but that's ok.
... It turned out there was a lot more to think about and talk
about than I had anticipated.
... Do people have the link to the branch?
RS: No
<clown>
[13]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/matt-action1505/aria/aria.html#a
ria-interactive
[13]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/matt-action1505/aria/aria.html#aria-interactive
Link to branch is above
MK: The first issue to deal with had to do with the desirable
behavior of descendant children.
... As I understand it, aria-interactive:false on a grid would
then make gridcells non-interactive.
... That would then mean we would not need a new cell role.
... Authors could just mark the property on the grid and the
property would be inherited by the gridcells.
... And then the gridcells would like like a plain td to ATs.
... But you don't want all descendants to get this property;
just the required owned elements.
RS: This applies also to rows, column headers, row headers.
MK: Are column headers and row headers required?
... They have required context.
... Is this going to be a nightmare?
JS: It should be the same as the presentation or none role.
CS: Can the author override that?
MK: No.
JG: If you're not exposing the widget role, how do you know
what the appropriate non-widget role is?
RS: We'd do that through the mapping guide.
... Example, IA2 has a role of cell, but then they look at the
object attributes for the grid cell.
CS: It would be mapped to however it's mapped on the host
operating system.
MK: So it comes across as gridcell with aria-interactive:false.
... And that would map the same regardless of the host
language.
CS: Yes, on a given platform.
JG: So if I put <div role="gridcell"> that will look like a td
when aria-interactive is false?
MK: Yes.
... At the moment, we're only put this on grid and list.
... I changed the ontology.
... Previously, list had as subclasses menu and directory.
... And directory had tablist as one of its subclasses.
... I removed menu from list and tablist from directory. Now
both tablist and menu are composites and do not inherit from
list.
... Now aria-interactive will operate on grid, treegrid, list,
and directory.
RS: Were there any inherited states and properties lost as a
result?
MK: I don't think so.
JD: I had checked. The answer is no.
RS: Just double-check it.
MK: There's one more change if the group still wants to go in
this direction.
... I can see both plusses and minuses to this approach.
... I'm not sure this will be better than adding new roles.
RS: I think people are already doing this anyways.
<ShaneM> Editorial comment: aria-interactive in "list" has an
and whitespace before it in the table entry
RS: For instance using grid as a non-interactive table. I've
heard this is already happening in the wild.
MK: I think when you're nesting tables in tables, you really
need to be explicit.... I cannot think of any situation when
you'd want to have an interactive child inside a
non-interactive parent or vice versa.
... For example, in a static table you don't need to make the
sortable column headers interactive. Just make them standarrd
links, right?
RS: It's less likely if you're using divs and spans.
... If someone wants to embedded a grid in a cell of a
non-interactive grid, you are not prohibiting that.
MK: Correct.
RS: Did you look at treegrid?
MK: Not yet.
JG: Is aria-interactive considered a repair technique?
RS: No, I don't think so.
JG: But you're using grids, and if you put this on it, you're
making it non-interactive.
... What's the difference between a non-interactive grid and a
table?
MK: Nothing.
... This gives us a way to support tables in host languages
which lack them.
... On the flip side, on a static element like list, this will
result in a new interactive widget: a listview.
... That's a capability we didn't have before.
JG: So a gridcell can be interactive or not based on this
property?
MK: A grid can be.
JG: This will be interesting to explain to authors.
MK: I was thinking about this. And this is one reason I'm not
convinced this is better than new roles with respect to
authoring.
RS: I think we're ok for now. Let's see what happens in the
wild if people complain.
JG: Besides list and grid, how many other candidates are there?
MK: In my estimation, not many.
... Related, why isn't toolbar a composite?
JS: I agree with you, but this discussion was raised at least
twice before.
... The conclusion was that a toolbar should be a structure.
RS: If you want to raise an issue, raise an issue.
<Zakim> clown, you wanted to note that practically any element
can be made interactive via script.
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[14]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/00
78.html
[14] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0078.html
ARIA Extension Review
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[15]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
[15] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
RS: Shane and I worked on this a bit.
... Are people happy with this?
Janina: In the global thing, I think we maybe want to decide
between "extension" or "module".
... The why is because what happens once it is accepted.
... On the user agent side, you have to implement it because
it's part of the ARIA specification. Right?
CS: I'm not sure.
... Thinking out loud, there are pieces. For instance, patterns
I think can be pretty separable.
... You could support one without the other and it would still
work. You'd have holes, but it should work.
Janina: We need disambiguation somewhere (e.g. the "part"
role).
Shane: I think anything that becomes a W3C REC (see item 4),
then it's required.
... (Reads from his text)
... It should say "every conforming ARIA implementation".
... But that's my opinion, and not what Cynthia is saying.
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to answer janina
CS: I'm thinking about how this will be implemented in
software.
... It's a collection of features that fits into a milestone.
... If it maps to something, that makes it easier to implement.
... If it's a big monolithic spec, that's harder to accomplish.
RS: I want to separate spec from extension.
... If something can be implemented broadly, we can put that in
a spec.
... If it's specific to a particular area/industry, like
digital publishing, we'd put it into a module.
... It's also possible that the digital publishing would not go
into a regular browser implementation; just a digital
publishing version of that browser.
Tzviya: I think it would be helpful in writing the module, if
we could leave the concept of roles being brought into the
master specification aside.
... I don't want to have to keep track of which role is
implemented where.
... I think it's great that roles might be incorporated into
the master spec, but I think we should set that aside for now.
RS: You have a timeline. If there were certain things we wanted
in the ARIA spec, if we get it in in time, would that meet your
needs?
Tzviya: We'd like to avoid duplication (e.g. a chapter role in
both the core spec and the DPUB spec).
RS: So would I.
... If we do it quickly, we could put it in a heartbeat draft.
Then you wouldn't have to do it.
Tzviya: We'd want to know from the outset what direction we're
headed in.
Janina: Trying to get all of this resolved in the W3C.
... PF is expected to take issues having to do with HTML to the
task force.
... We are going to try to invite everyone soon, perhaps at
next week's telecon, to discuss this.
... 11:00 Eastern.
... So we can discuss and move to a solution that works for
everyone.
... We also need to discuss how a user agent developer knows
how they have version x.y of a spec implemented.
RS: That's true for HTML now.
Janina: No, HTML extensions are part of the spec.
RS: I shared this ARIA extensions with Steve, and he doesn't
seem to have any issues with it.
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about duplication and
semantics
Shane: If something gets approved it's part of the core.
... If there are things that use the same term, obviously they
need to be distinguished. Perhaps through a prefix.
... However, that's what PF is for.
... We need to ensure that roles work well across the board
whenever possible.
RS: When a group creates a module, as long as we don't have a
collision, we should have bottlenecks and trying to redefine
industry language.
... These people working on this spec are experts in this area.
... We should try to be respectful and just worry about the
conflict issues, and ensure we have good mappings.
CS: One issue is roles for an area. Another is OS features.
... These may need to be treated separately.
... From a user agent perspective, it's nice to be able to say
"I've implemented this piece."
... For really big specs, that's more difficult.
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say it´s hard to predict future
collisions, to decide what might need prefixing and what
doesn´t
MC: About collisions, I think Shane is right. We're here to
ensure there are not collisions.
... However that's hard to predict.
... Example if we were going to do music, "ARIA" might not have
been chosen.
FE: Two things. One is you worry about what you can pass to
ATs.
... With graphics, you want to expose that role to ATs, like
"axis".
... You don't want to be limited to a small set of limited
terms.
... The other thing is navigation. You need to provide keys and
information so that you can adjust and provide better
understanding.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about extensiblity of
extensions
Tzviya: In Digital Publishing, we hope to be able to extend our
extension in the future.
... For instance, terms related to education and assessment.
RS: That's why the nice thing about the prefix thing is that it
will allow you to do what you want to do without name
collisions.
... Cynthia, we haven't even looked at the API extensions, but
that doesn't mean we can't change this down the road.
... I think HTML changed it a couple of times in the past.
... So if we need to do something, we can do it later on.
... Does anyone have any fundamental issues with what we have
at the moment?
Janina: I don't.
CS: Please read it.
RS: (Reads it)
[16]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
[16] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
The above text is what RS is reading from.
CS: That all sounds great for adding roles.
... But that doesn't address extensions I'd like to add.
MK: In response to what Fred said, it's my understanding that
ATs don't have to use the rolenames explicitly. They can
translate it however they want/need to.
... I don't think you should assume that the rolenames exposed
will not be the rolenames presented by ATs.
... ATs are not obligated to use the rolename as stated in the
spec.
RS: Right. We cannot dictate the AT presentation.
MK: Example "combo box" might be presented as "pick list"
(hypothetically)
<richardschwerdtfeger> q/
JS: The accessibility APIs frequently have ways to do
localization.
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to point out that role synonyms are
very low cost to support and to mention that collisions are not
just about the LEXICAL name. They are about the behavior and
Shane: James Craig has stated that role synonyms are very low
cost to support. Example, role presentation and role none.
... But, it's always been my assuption that the role which gets
matched by the browser is exposed to the ATs.
... But I'd hope the other roles can still be obtained.
... As an AT. I can find out the real role value.
MK: I'm not sure that's the case on all platforms.
CS: In Windows, you can.
... We use the constant for the similar role, along with a
localizable string that's closer to the ARIA role.
... I think Apple has a similar mechanism.
<clown>
[17]http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappin
gGeneralRules
[17]
http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappingGeneralRules
JS: The URL above, says "User agents must expose the WAI-ARIA
role string if the API supports a mechanism to do so. This
allows assistive technologies to do their own additional
processing of roles."
CS: The goal is to have the platform APIs be as rich as ARIA.
<Zakim> clown, you wanted to mention item 5 at
[18]http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappin
gGeneralRules
[18]
http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappingGeneralRules
Shane: The other point I wanted to make is that it's not about
the string, it's what the string means.
Janina: I was going to suggest we have some global statements
and some module statements.
... I think this is what Cynthia was talking about earlier.
... Example, someone might want to extend states.
... We should probably add a statement that the extensions
currently under consideration pertain to roles. But that there
are potentially others.
Shane: What Cynthia is talking about is dynamically extending
the taxonomy.
CS: (Confirms that)
... I heard several constraints about adding roles and
properties, and not other features.
... We're going to need to deal with this.
RS: I think we'll have to deal with it for ARIA 2.
... For example, the WAPA work.
CS: It doesn't say that.
RS: Because I didn't think of it.
... Do you want us to say this for ARIA 1.x?
CS: I'll look at it later today. I don't want there to be an
ARIA 1.2; I want to get started on ARIA 2.0.
<Zakim> janina, you wanted to propose generic vs specific
delineation
RS: Whatever we do for 2.0 cannot break the 1.1 extensions.
Shane: Cynthia, please feel free to edit the wiki.
RS: Janina, can we add this to next Wednesday's call?
Janina: Yes.
RS: Aside from any additions by Cynthia, are we all set?
... Should we put a version on this?
CS: You may want to do so as I may have some significant edits.
Shane: I agree.
Review Open Action Items and Issues
action-1361
<trackbot> action-1361 -- James Nurthen to Suggest new text for
the application role -- due 2015-04-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
[19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
JN: I haven't done it.
RS: I know. :)
JN: I'm not sure when I can get to this.
MK: I'm lined up to do aria-selected.
... If this action is important, I am willing to look at his
action after I do aria-selected.
RS: How about I assign it to you Matt?
MK: Two weeks from today for action-1361.
<clown> action-603?
<trackbot> action-603 -- James Craig to Add thead markup to
UAIG so headers are readable on multi-page printouts -- due
2010-06-30 -- CLOSED
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/603
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/603
issue-603
<trackbot> issue-603 -- Need an attr to indicate element
activation triggers audio, video, etc. -- open
<trackbot> [21]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603
[21] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603
<clown> action-1363?
<trackbot> action-1363 -- James Craig to Patch issue-603:
aria-startsmedia -- due 2015-03-12 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[22]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363
[22] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363
action-1380
<trackbot> action-1380 -- James Craig to #presentation should
mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector
images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
[23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
RS: Can you look into this Joanie?
JD: I can look into it, but it won't be next week.
... June would be lovely.
JG: Testing plans for ARIA 1.1?
RS: We should probably do that.
... But should figure out what's going to happen with the
charter.
MC: Testing is on my radar, but on the backburner currently.
... Do we want to use the existing harness or Test The Web
Forward.
... The latter doesn't support direct access to accessibility
APIs.
RS: The group would love that.
Janina: If we want to be in CR, we need to be testing.
CS: Six months might be doable.
RS: Should annotations be moved out to ARIA 2.0?
CS: Could we make it an extension?
RS: Why not move it out to ARIA 2.0. And if need be, put it
into an extension. Will that work?
CS: Yes.
RS: I'm trying to get ARIA 1.1 done.
<richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
<MichaelC> [24]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter
[24] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter
Charter
MC: [25]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter
... The group should look at that.
[25] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 14 May 2015 18:17:18 UTC