[ARIA] Meeting minutes for Thursday, 14 May 2015

Link: http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-aria-minutes.html

Plain text follows:

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

           Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
                              14 May 2015

   [2]Agenda

      [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0078.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-aria-irc

Attendees

   Present
          tzviya, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, ShaneM,
          fesch, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, James_Nurthen, jongund,
          Matt_King

   Regrets
   Chair
          Rich_Schwerdtfeger

   Scribe
          joanie

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Heads Up Items
         2. [6]Heartbeat
         3. [7]aria-interactive
         4. [8]ARIA Extension Review
         5. [9]Review Open Action Items and Issues
         6. [10]Charter
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 14 May 2015

   <scribe> scribe: joanie

   <richardschwerdtfeger>
   [12]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/00
   78.html

     [12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0078.html

Heads Up Items

   RS: Janina, when are you reading to talk about
   aria-describedat?

   Janina: When you come back from vacation.

   RS: I'll be on vacation for two weeks and will need a chair.

Heartbeat

   RS: Issues?

   MC: Not for this group.
   ... I did a bunch of cleanup to the documents.
   ... If I didn't think they were editorial, I pinged the
   editors.
   ... Hopefully they'll be up later today.

   RS: aria-interactive didn't make it right?

   MC: Correct.

aria-interactive

   <clown> s/ARIA Interactive/aria-interactive/g

   <clown> g/ARIA Interactive/aria-interactive/

   RS: Matt, anything you want to talk about?

   MK: I guess we didn't make the cut, but that's ok.
   ... It turned out there was a lot more to think about and talk
   about than I had anticipated.
   ... Do people have the link to the branch?

   RS: No

   <clown>
   [13]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/matt-action1505/aria/aria.html#a
   ria-interactive

     [13]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/matt-action1505/aria/aria.html#aria-interactive

   Link to branch is above

   MK: The first issue to deal with had to do with the desirable
   behavior of descendant children.
   ... As I understand it, aria-interactive:false on a grid would
   then make gridcells non-interactive.
   ... That would then mean we would not need a new cell role.
   ... Authors could just mark the property on the grid and the
   property would be inherited by the gridcells.
   ... And then the gridcells would like like a plain td to ATs.
   ... But you don't want all descendants to get this property;
   just the required owned elements.

   RS: This applies also to rows, column headers, row headers.

   MK: Are column headers and row headers required?
   ... They have required context.
   ... Is this going to be a nightmare?

   JS: It should be the same as the presentation or none role.

   CS: Can the author override that?

   MK: No.

   JG: If you're not exposing the widget role, how do you know
   what the appropriate non-widget role is?

   RS: We'd do that through the mapping guide.
   ... Example, IA2 has a role of cell, but then they look at the
   object attributes for the grid cell.

   CS: It would be mapped to however it's mapped on the host
   operating system.

   MK: So it comes across as gridcell with aria-interactive:false.
   ... And that would map the same regardless of the host
   language.

   CS: Yes, on a given platform.

   JG: So if I put <div role="gridcell"> that will look like a td
   when aria-interactive is false?

   MK: Yes.
   ... At the moment, we're only put this on grid and list.
   ... I changed the ontology.
   ... Previously, list had as subclasses menu and directory.
   ... And directory had tablist as one of its subclasses.
   ... I removed menu from list and tablist from directory. Now
   both tablist and menu are composites and do not inherit from
   list.
   ... Now aria-interactive will operate on grid, treegrid, list,
   and directory.

   RS: Were there any inherited states and properties lost as a
   result?

   MK: I don't think so.

   JD: I had checked. The answer is no.

   RS: Just double-check it.

   MK: There's one more change if the group still wants to go in
   this direction.
   ... I can see both plusses and minuses to this approach.
   ... I'm not sure this will be better than adding new roles.

   RS: I think people are already doing this anyways.

   <ShaneM> Editorial comment: aria-interactive in "list" has an
   &nbsp; and whitespace before it in the table entry

   RS: For instance using grid as a non-interactive table. I've
   heard this is already happening in the wild.

   MK: I think when you're nesting tables in tables, you really
   need to be explicit.... I cannot think of any situation when
   you'd want to have an interactive child inside a
   non-interactive parent or vice versa.
   ... For example, in a static table you don't need to make the
   sortable column headers interactive. Just make them standarrd
   links, right?

   RS: It's less likely if you're using divs and spans.
   ... If someone wants to embedded a grid in a cell of a
   non-interactive grid, you are not prohibiting that.

   MK: Correct.

   RS: Did you look at treegrid?

   MK: Not yet.

   JG: Is aria-interactive considered a repair technique?

   RS: No, I don't think so.

   JG: But you're using grids, and if you put this on it, you're
   making it non-interactive.
   ... What's the difference between a non-interactive grid and a
   table?

   MK: Nothing.
   ... This gives us a way to support tables in host languages
   which lack them.
   ... On the flip side, on a static element like list, this will
   result in a new interactive widget: a listview.
   ... That's a capability we didn't have before.

   JG: So a gridcell can be interactive or not based on this
   property?

   MK: A grid can be.

   JG: This will be interesting to explain to authors.

   MK: I was thinking about this. And this is one reason I'm not
   convinced this is better than new roles with respect to
   authoring.

   RS: I think we're ok for now. Let's see what happens in the
   wild if people complain.

   JG: Besides list and grid, how many other candidates are there?

   MK: In my estimation, not many.
   ... Related, why isn't toolbar a composite?

   JS: I agree with you, but this discussion was raised at least
   twice before.
   ... The conclusion was that a toolbar should be a structure.

   RS: If you want to raise an issue, raise an issue.

   <Zakim> clown, you wanted to note that practically any element
   can be made interactive via script.

   <richardschwerdtfeger>
   [14]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/00
   78.html

     [14] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0078.html

ARIA Extension Review

   <richardschwerdtfeger>
   [15]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions

     [15] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions

   RS: Shane and I worked on this a bit.
   ... Are people happy with this?

   Janina: In the global thing, I think we maybe want to decide
   between "extension" or "module".
   ... The why is because what happens once it is accepted.
   ... On the user agent side, you have to implement it because
   it's part of the ARIA specification. Right?

   CS: I'm not sure.
   ... Thinking out loud, there are pieces. For instance, patterns
   I think can be pretty separable.
   ... You could support one without the other and it would still
   work. You'd have holes, but it should work.

   Janina: We need disambiguation somewhere (e.g. the "part"
   role).

   Shane: I think anything that becomes a W3C REC (see item 4),
   then it's required.
   ... (Reads from his text)
   ... It should say "every conforming ARIA implementation".
   ... But that's my opinion, and not what Cynthia is saying.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to answer janina

   CS: I'm thinking about how this will be implemented in
   software.
   ... It's a collection of features that fits into a milestone.
   ... If it maps to something, that makes it easier to implement.
   ... If it's a big monolithic spec, that's harder to accomplish.

   RS: I want to separate spec from extension.
   ... If something can be implemented broadly, we can put that in
   a spec.
   ... If it's specific to a particular area/industry, like
   digital publishing, we'd put it into a module.
   ... It's also possible that the digital publishing would not go
   into a regular browser implementation; just a digital
   publishing version of that browser.

   Tzviya: I think it would be helpful in writing the module, if
   we could leave the concept of roles being brought into the
   master specification aside.
   ... I don't want to have to keep track of which role is
   implemented where.
   ... I think it's great that roles might be incorporated into
   the master spec, but I think we should set that aside for now.

   RS: You have a timeline. If there were certain things we wanted
   in the ARIA spec, if we get it in in time, would that meet your
   needs?

   Tzviya: We'd like to avoid duplication (e.g. a chapter role in
   both the core spec and the DPUB spec).

   RS: So would I.
   ... If we do it quickly, we could put it in a heartbeat draft.
   Then you wouldn't have to do it.

   Tzviya: We'd want to know from the outset what direction we're
   headed in.

   Janina: Trying to get all of this resolved in the W3C.
   ... PF is expected to take issues having to do with HTML to the
   task force.
   ... We are going to try to invite everyone soon, perhaps at
   next week's telecon, to discuss this.
   ... 11:00 Eastern.
   ... So we can discuss and move to a solution that works for
   everyone.
   ... We also need to discuss how a user agent developer knows
   how they have version x.y of a spec implemented.

   RS: That's true for HTML now.

   Janina: No, HTML extensions are part of the spec.

   RS: I shared this ARIA extensions with Steve, and he doesn't
   seem to have any issues with it.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about duplication and
   semantics

   Shane: If something gets approved it's part of the core.
   ... If there are things that use the same term, obviously they
   need to be distinguished. Perhaps through a prefix.
   ... However, that's what PF is for.
   ... We need to ensure that roles work well across the board
   whenever possible.

   RS: When a group creates a module, as long as we don't have a
   collision, we should have bottlenecks and trying to redefine
   industry language.
   ... These people working on this spec are experts in this area.
   ... We should try to be respectful and just worry about the
   conflict issues, and ensure we have good mappings.

   CS: One issue is roles for an area. Another is OS features.
   ... These may need to be treated separately.
   ... From a user agent perspective, it's nice to be able to say
   "I've implemented this piece."
   ... For really big specs, that's more difficult.

   <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say it´s hard to predict future
   collisions, to decide what might need prefixing and what
   doesn´t

   MC: About collisions, I think Shane is right. We're here to
   ensure there are not collisions.
   ... However that's hard to predict.
   ... Example if we were going to do music, "ARIA" might not have
   been chosen.

   FE: Two things. One is you worry about what you can pass to
   ATs.
   ... With graphics, you want to expose that role to ATs, like
   "axis".
   ... You don't want to be limited to a small set of limited
   terms.
   ... The other thing is navigation. You need to provide keys and
   information so that you can adjust and provide better
   understanding.

   <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about extensiblity of
   extensions

   Tzviya: In Digital Publishing, we hope to be able to extend our
   extension in the future.
   ... For instance, terms related to education and assessment.

   RS: That's why the nice thing about the prefix thing is that it
   will allow you to do what you want to do without name
   collisions.
   ... Cynthia, we haven't even looked at the API extensions, but
   that doesn't mean we can't change this down the road.
   ... I think HTML changed it a couple of times in the past.
   ... So if we need to do something, we can do it later on.
   ... Does anyone have any fundamental issues with what we have
   at the moment?

   Janina: I don't.

   CS: Please read it.

   RS: (Reads it)

   [16]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions

     [16] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions

   The above text is what RS is reading from.

   CS: That all sounds great for adding roles.
   ... But that doesn't address extensions I'd like to add.

   MK: In response to what Fred said, it's my understanding that
   ATs don't have to use the rolenames explicitly. They can
   translate it however they want/need to.
   ... I don't think you should assume that the rolenames exposed
   will not be the rolenames presented by ATs.
   ... ATs are not obligated to use the rolename as stated in the
   spec.

   RS: Right. We cannot dictate the AT presentation.

   MK: Example "combo box" might be presented as "pick list"
   (hypothetically)

   <richardschwerdtfeger> q/

   JS: The accessibility APIs frequently have ways to do
   localization.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to point out that role synonyms are
   very low cost to support and to mention that collisions are not
   just about the LEXICAL name. They are about the behavior and

   Shane: James Craig has stated that role synonyms are very low
   cost to support. Example, role presentation and role none.
   ... But, it's always been my assuption that the role which gets
   matched by the browser is exposed to the ATs.
   ... But I'd hope the other roles can still be obtained.
   ... As an AT. I can find out the real role value.

   MK: I'm not sure that's the case on all platforms.

   CS: In Windows, you can.
   ... We use the constant for the similar role, along with a
   localizable string that's closer to the ARIA role.
   ... I think Apple has a similar mechanism.

   <clown>
   [17]http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappin
   gGeneralRules

     [17]
http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappingGeneralRules

   JS: The URL above, says "User agents must expose the WAI-ARIA
   role string if the API supports a mechanism to do so. This
   allows assistive technologies to do their own additional
   processing of roles."

   CS: The goal is to have the platform APIs be as rich as ARIA.

   <Zakim> clown, you wanted to mention item 5 at
   [18]http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappin
   gGeneralRules

     [18]
http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#roleMappingGeneralRules

   Shane: The other point I wanted to make is that it's not about
   the string, it's what the string means.

   Janina: I was going to suggest we have some global statements
   and some module statements.
   ... I think this is what Cynthia was talking about earlier.
   ... Example, someone might want to extend states.
   ... We should probably add a statement that the extensions
   currently under consideration pertain to roles. But that there
   are potentially others.

   Shane: What Cynthia is talking about is dynamically extending
   the taxonomy.

   CS: (Confirms that)
   ... I heard several constraints about adding roles and
   properties, and not other features.
   ... We're going to need to deal with this.

   RS: I think we'll have to deal with it for ARIA 2.
   ... For example, the WAPA work.

   CS: It doesn't say that.

   RS: Because I didn't think of it.
   ... Do you want us to say this for ARIA 1.x?

   CS: I'll look at it later today. I don't want there to be an
   ARIA 1.2; I want to get started on ARIA 2.0.

   <Zakim> janina, you wanted to propose generic vs specific
   delineation

   RS: Whatever we do for 2.0 cannot break the 1.1 extensions.

   Shane: Cynthia, please feel free to edit the wiki.

   RS: Janina, can we add this to next Wednesday's call?

   Janina: Yes.

   RS: Aside from any additions by Cynthia, are we all set?
   ... Should we put a version on this?

   CS: You may want to do so as I may have some significant edits.

   Shane: I agree.

Review Open Action Items and Issues

   action-1361

   <trackbot> action-1361 -- James Nurthen to Suggest new text for
   the application role -- due 2015-04-02 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361

     [19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361

   JN: I haven't done it.

   RS: I know. :)

   JN: I'm not sure when I can get to this.

   MK: I'm lined up to do aria-selected.
   ... If this action is important, I am willing to look at his
   action after I do aria-selected.

   RS: How about I assign it to you Matt?

   MK: Two weeks from today for action-1361.

   <clown> action-603?

   <trackbot> action-603 -- James Craig to Add thead markup to
   UAIG so headers are readable on multi-page printouts -- due
   2010-06-30 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot>
   [20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/603

     [20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/603

   issue-603

   <trackbot> issue-603 -- Need an attr to indicate element
   activation triggers audio, video, etc. -- open

   <trackbot> [21]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603

     [21] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603

   <clown> action-1363?

   <trackbot> action-1363 -- James Craig to Patch issue-603:
   aria-startsmedia -- due 2015-03-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [22]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363

     [22] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363

   action-1380

   <trackbot> action-1380 -- James Craig to #presentation should
   mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector
   images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380

     [23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380

   RS: Can you look into this Joanie?

   JD: I can look into it, but it won't be next week.
   ... June would be lovely.

   JG: Testing plans for ARIA 1.1?

   RS: We should probably do that.
   ... But should figure out what's going to happen with the
   charter.

   MC: Testing is on my radar, but on the backburner currently.
   ... Do we want to use the existing harness or Test The Web
   Forward.
   ... The latter doesn't support direct access to accessibility
   APIs.

   RS: The group would love that.

   Janina: If we want to be in CR, we need to be testing.

   CS: Six months might be doable.

   RS: Should annotations be moved out to ARIA 2.0?

   CS: Could we make it an extension?

   RS: Why not move it out to ARIA 2.0. And if need be, put it
   into an extension. Will that work?

   CS: Yes.

   RS: I'm trying to get ARIA 1.1 done.

   <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

   <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich

   <MichaelC> [24]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter

Charter

   MC: [25]http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter
   ... The group should look at that.

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 14 May 2015 18:17:18 UTC