- From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
- Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 07:55:59 +0000
- To: Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
- CC: "public-pfwg@w3.org" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D139251B.33093%jongund@illinois.edu>
Matt and Cynthia,
I think information on the experience provided by different ATs is useful to authors, so they start to learn how screen readers work and the the experience they provide users. Many development teams are very concerned with user experience and knowledge of what at least some screen readers do may help development teams make decisions on what ARIA widgets to use.
Jon
From: Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 5:18 PM
To: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com<mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>>
Cc: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>, "public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Updated slider example for APG discussion
Cynthia,
When integrated into the APG, all the examples will reference their patterns. So all the info about ARIA attribs will be easy to get. This example is currently stand-alone in John's repo so you don't see any of that.
I understand the request to do more, but am not clear what that would look like in practice without turning the APG into "how to develop a screen reader" ... which is not its purpose.
It is left to the screen reader designer to decide how to perform the screen reader functions of announcing widget name, role, value, state, changes in state, etc. In the APG, we describe how authors set these things and and how they change, but do not decide what is an adequate level of communication to the end user of AT. Should the screen reader speak the slider value or the percentage or both? Should it give the user a choice? Should it automatically speak one and then have some ridiculous 4-finger command for hearing the other? There is not always a clear answer to any such questions. Should the APG specify what should be, at a minimum, communicated to the users of AT? The current taskforce consensus, as I understand it, is that it is completely up to the AT designer to make such decisions.
Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>
From: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com<mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>>
To: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>, Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS,
Cc: "public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Date: 03/24/2015 02:48 PM
Subject: RE: Updated slider example for APG discussion
________________________________
I agree that an explicit UI spec is out of scope. However, speaking as someone trying to build and test a screen-reader, it would be very useful to have text in the examples showing what aria values are set or changed in response to what user actions, and how you envisioned this working when you created it as an author. I could probably figure that out by digging through the code and trying it with other AT products, but that is a lot of error-prone work.
I just tried this in IE+Narrator, and the behavior I’m getting doesn’t feel very usable to me. I’m not sure if that is a shortcoming of the example or of the browser/AT combo. Some details on what you expected would help a lot.
Make sense?
From: Gunderson, Jon R [mailto:jongund@illinois.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:10 AM
To: Matthew King; Cynthia Shelly
Cc: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Updated slider example for APG discussion
Shelly,
I agree with Matt there should be something between nothing and a mandates to AT.
This is where at least some information on current experience with different OS/Browser/AT would be helpful.
For example Safari/Voice Over just speaks percentages for the default slider implementation, so there users don’t know the current numerical value or max/min values. In JAWS and NVDA on windows tell you the numeric values but not the max/min.
This information maybe useful to developers to decide if they want to use aria-valuetext to have a ore consistent experience to users across platforms.
Jon
From: Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 6:41 AM
To: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com<mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>>
Cc: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>, "public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Updated slider example for APG discussion
Cynthia,
We have made a decision not to do this in the APG taskforce because we understand it is not our place to "dictate screen reader behavior." We believe that screen reader developers want to work with end users of their products to assess adequacy and/or competitive advantage.
I believe there may be some middle ground between dictating acceptable output and nothing that would be helpful, but the taskforce consensus is not to attempt to tackle that question at this time.
Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>
From: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com<mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>>
To: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>, "public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>,
Date: 03/23/2015 06:11 PM
Subject: RE: Updated slider example for APG discussion
________________________________
HI Jon,
Have you documented what the expected screen-reader output is for these sliders? I’m trying to figure out if the experience in Windows 10 is acceptable.
Thanks,
Cynthia
From: Gunderson, Jon R [mailto:jongund@illinois.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 9:55 AM
To: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Updated slider example for APG discussion
I have updated the slider example for the authoring practices guide (APG) and included some META information that hopefully we can discuss on the call today.
http://jongund.github.io/aria-examples/slider/slider-1.html
Jon
From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 11:41 AM
To: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Agenda: Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
Believe me - I have made the same mistake a number of times.
On 3/16/2015 9:38 AM, Gunderson, Jon R wrote:
Sorry, got mixed up with the ARIA call.
Jon
From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 11:37 AM
To: Gunderson, Jon R; public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Agenda: Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
The meeting isn't for another 30 (well 25 now) minutes
On 3/16/2015 9:35 AM, Gunderson, Jon R wrote:
I tried calling the bridge and it would not let me in:
Something about a restriction.
Jon
From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 11:34 AM
To: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Agenda: Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
I think Matt is going to try to be there. His meeting should be done in time.
On 3/16/2015 9:05 AM, Ku, Ja Eun wrote:
Then are we cancelling the meeting today?
Jemma
From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 11:01 AM
To: James Nurthen; public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Agenda: Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
I also have a conflicting appointment that may prevent me from attending, so it depends on how soon I can break free.
From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 8:45 AM
To: public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Agenda: Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
Unfortunately I have been sick for the last 5 days and have a Doctor's appointment during the call time so if Matt cannot make it we will need to cancel the call.
Regards,
James
On 3/16/2015 5:25 AM, Matthew King wrote:
Reminder ... since I sent this a week ago.
There is a possibility I may not be able to attend today. If I do not show, James, I hope you will be available to lead the call.
I am at our Austin site teaching. I believe we will be done in time, but am not completely certain.
From: Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM
To: WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org><mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>,
Date: 03/09/2015 12:56 PM
Subject: Agenda: Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
________________________________
Agenda for Monday, 16 March 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce
Time: 10:00 AM US Pacific, 1:00 PM US Eastern
duration: 1.5 hours
Zakim Bridge: +1.617.761.6200, conference 92473 ("WAIPF")
IRC server: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #aria-apg
agenda:
Agenda+ autocomplete http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#autocomplete
Agenda+ Combo box http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#combobox
Agenda+ Planning for next public working draft
Resources:
APG 1.0 editors draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/
APG master in rawGit: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html
APG Open defects: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Practices&list_id=45642&product=ARIA&resolution=---
APG Open issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/6
Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>
Received on Thursday, 26 March 2015 07:56:34 UTC