Draft Minutes: 23 March 2015 ARIA Authoring Practices Teleconference

Link:

https://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-minutes.html



[W3C]<http://www.w3.org/>

- DRAFT -
ARIA Authoring Practices TF
23 Mar 2015

See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-irc>

Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
jongund
Contents

  *   Topics<https://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   Autocomplete<https://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-minutes.html#item01>
     *   SLider Example<https://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-minutes.html#item02>
  *   Summary of Action Items<https://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

________________________________

<trackbot> Date: 23 March 2015

<kooje> I will be calling soon

Autocomplete

MK: Autocomplete and combobox overlap in their descriptions, so hard to distinguish them as different

<mattking> Here are current descriptions of auto and combo:

<mattking> Autocomplete:

<mattking> A textbox and an associated drop-down list of choices where the choices offered are filtered based on the information typed into the box. Typically, an icon associated with the textbox triggers the display of the drop-down list of choices. An editable auto-complete accepts text entry of choices that are not in the list. An example of an editable auto-complete is the URL field in the browsers.

<mattking> Combo:

<mattking> A combo box enables the user to type in a field and at the same time chose a predefined value from a list. By using the keyboard the user can select an item from the list. After selection she will be able to type further characters in the field.

MK: It looks like combo box is what autocomplete
... We don't mean the equivalent of HTML select, which is called a combobox by screen readers
... listbox and combobox screen reader ....
... Can people explain the visual difference between autocomplete and combo

JN: Autocomplete does not have icon

MK: Autocomplete doesn't have an icon?

JN: Friefox does have an icon, chrome doesn't, so there are browser dependencies

MK: Combobox already has choices, and a autocomplete you must type something

JN: An autocomplete automatically shows a choice, in combobox you have to do something to see the choices
... Combobox is an older concept, autocomplete is more modern

AA: Some widgets have a list of options

JN: thats a listbox

MK: If you are using a text box, one example is an international list of cities
... A combobox allows you to use down arrow to see the entire list, with autocomplete you get a filtered list based on what you typed

AA: First letter usually moves you to items that start with letter

MK: I am not convinced we can find what distinguished one from the other

BG: What about the HTML spec

MK: Are there comboboxs that do not use edit boxes?
... What is the difference between a combobox with out an edit and a list box

JN: It is a listbox if you cannot type in your own value

MK: In windows there are lots of them

JN: It maybe labelled as the wrong thing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_box

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop-down_list

MK: Should we steal that definition

AA: Reads another definition...

MK: That it is a static text box

AA: multiple lines, for multiple options

MK: A multi-line text box
... Do we have a pattern in APG for drop down or listbox

AA: Wikipeida has a reference to "Drop DOwn" and ....

MK: In the APG we can also do entries that are not in the list

AA: Meaning what?

MK: It is not always true that you can make changes

AA: Not permanently expanded like at listbox
... I am not sure listboxes are permanently expanded

JN: A listbox is

AA: I have not come across a real listbox for awhile

MK: We do have a listbox patterns

JN: What are we trying to solve

BG: What is the difference ....

MK: You could combine then, if a combobox did not have to have an icon
... For example the to filed in a webmail application, it just completes the suggestion

JN: It normally shows a list if there is more than one

AA: You get a list when more than one match

MK: I always see inline completion
... So if you get a list, I am not sure what the differences are
... Essentially a combo and autocomplete both have inline and list
... It is difficult to see pure examples of autocomplete

BG: ... comment...

MK: My proposal to combine...

JN: People look more for autocomplete, I think we should keep both

MK: How will we make them difference

JN: If everything is the same we can look combining them at a latter time

AA: Auto complete is a property, combobox is a role
... Only one is a widget

MK: Changing properties can change the default role

JN: Autocomplete keeps focus in thetext box, combobox the focus moves up/down the list of options

MK: Is the difference... there is not such thing as pseudo focus
... The visual focus stays in the edit box, but the focus...

JN: Active descendent ..., down to the next entry in the list of choices
... Typing letters in an auto complete puts the text in the edit box
... Keyboard behavior is much different
... Shane has coded some of these

MK: When you press a letter when you are in a list, I though this was just different options
... I am wondering when you would not have role=combobox

BG: ARIA auto completes is either list or inline

AA: We can also have both
... and none

MK: Someone needs to dynamically change an attribute like auto-complete
... I have always said that if you have an edit and a list you have a combo, maybe I was wrong

BG: Once you get into a combobox list you need to escape to get out of it

JG: Can I build some examples for next week?

BG: Be sure to look at examples....

MK: I have been talking about this for a long time, with out a satisfactory outcome for me
... Looks like there are keyboard behavior differences .... reading current specs...
... I did not know wrapping is normal

AA: WHat are you reading from?

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#autocomplete

MK: The keyboard for autocomplete look perfect for combobox, they do not address JN comment and ....

AA: Issue with current APG, there should be some way to go to the part that defines the keyboard navigation

MK: What do you mean by immediately, it is in a table

AA: URL is not telling me

your in the ARIA spec

AA: Why are they not cross linked
... Then you wonder why we don't have proper keyboard navigation

JN: What are we trying to solve
... I don't think having example of autocomplete and combobox is a problem
... Focus management is different

MK: When you use the arrow keys, talks about the highlights, but not focus, so autocomplete def needs work

AA: Focus is controlled by the combobox

JN: Autocomplete does not talk about how it works in practice... in reality it does ..... w it does a bunch of stuff
... They are all trying to guess what you want
... A combo won't add the text in the text box, just highlights the list

AA: There still needs to be a selection to get it into the field

MK: Maybe it is conflicting with itself

AA: What are we looking at

MK: The keyboard description ...

<annabbott> Optional: When a choice is highlighted via arrow key navigation, the input cursor is left at the end of the typed entry and the highlighted choice is displayed in the textbox with the characters after the input cursor selected. Typing an additional character will remove the auto-completed portion and append the newly typed character to the end of the previously typed characters. The list...

<annabbott> ...will be filtered based on the additional character(s) typed.

MK: Put the characters after the input selected...
... Characters after the input type selected
... In a combobox you could never have inline autocomplete

JN: Combobox has more design patterns

MK: Connections is different, it is odd I don't understand it, I understand it, but user experience is hard
... There is a difference between what was written here, anticipates that type of experience

AA: I am sure of that

MK: We are an hour into the meeting, we have issues, but not progress

JN: Put a proposal together and we can look at
... I think we need to be concern for people looking for autocomplete and combobox

BG: We make combobox the base and then expaling the additional requirements for autocomplete

MK: That is an interesting point
... What is an comboboc without an autocomplete

BG: The spec indicates there is
... If you don't have autocomplete, then it is not a combobox

JN: There is a case where you can select a predefined value or a new value

MK: You can do that with autocomplete too
... I think that behavior is totally up to the author, it doesn't matter

JN: It helps to see the values

MK: It doesn't give the control a new role
... If you don't have any form autocomplete it is not a combobox

JN: I am not convinced

MK: If you are typing a value not in the list, the autocompelete will not help you an might not have any options

AA: Whether the system accepts your value is up to the autho

MK: Sometimes it remembers your values for the next time you come
... Can we create a bug with an action for MK
... Propose a single...

JN: We should talk to bryan
... What the down side for leaving them both there , just fix them up

MK: Downside is what is a autocomplete is not a combobox, ....

BG: Both autocomplete and combox ....

MK: All of them get mapped to "combobox" by AT
... I see a problem of having to patterns that are essentially the same, with some arbitrary differences

BG: We need to have some good examples to illustrate the differences

MK: I don't mind getting more information, but I think we need a proposal
... What I would end up doing is... making them closer and closer together as we fix the problems

JN: I don't think they are the same pattern

AA: Combobox is a role, autocomplete is a property

JN: The choices reduce down as you type in autocomplete

MK: I thought that was an optional behavior of a combobox
... If there is a list it needs aria combobox
... I don't feel we are coming to a place where developers will easily differentiate between a combobox and an autocomplete

SLider Example

http://jongund.github.io/aria-examples/slider/slider-1.html

AA: I like the keyboard support

MK: I thought we didn't want to have it in two places

JN: We need to maintain it in 2 places, we need to update examples if we change the document

MK: We don't need the application role

BG: It causes JAWS to not be spoken

MK: ... JAWS behavior discussion ...
... It seems that down and right are the same
... We do not neext AT testing results

Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2015-03-23 18:31:48 $
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Possibly Present: AA Ann_abbott Autocomplete BG Birkir Combo JG JN James_Nurthen Jemma Jon_Gunderson MK Matt_King Optional aaaa aabb annabbott aria-apg jamesn janina joined kooje mattking trackbot

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        <dbooth> Present+ amy





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Found Date: 23 Mar 2015

Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-aria-apg-minutes.html

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