RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect

Thanks, that sounds good to me.

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 8:13 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa
Cc: 'James Craig'; lwatson@paciellogroup.com; 'WAI Protocols & Formats'
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect


I understand. We did spend a lot of time on their specification and we had found them to work in the absence of the HTML working group drag and drop work. The reality is that the drag and drop work did not materialize from HTML.

So, then there is the definition of "deprecation".  We could say that our intent is to replace these two attributes with something new in ARIA 2.0. This would keep them around and let consumers know that a replacement is coming. So, we say we are going to keep these around until a replacement is found in ARIA 2.0.

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger

[Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---06/22/2015 09:56:03 AM---They haven’t made use of these attributes in the out-of-]Bryan Garaventa ---06/22/2015 09:56:03 AM---They haven’t made use of these attributes in the out-of-box component, but we did add them in a cust

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>>, "lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>" <lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>>, "'WAI Protocols & Formats'" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Date: 06/22/2015 09:56 AM
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect

________________________________



They haven’t made use of these attributes in the out-of-box component, but we did add them in a custom implementation we did about two years ago for a client where the correct feedback was being conveyed when arrowing within the tree and invoking the drag and drop functionality from the keyboard.

I’m just a bit concerned about this support just disappearing like a carpet being pulled out from beneath them.




From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 7:40 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa
Cc: 'James Craig'; lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>; 'WAI Protocols & Formats'
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect


Has GWT made use of aria-grabbed and aria-dropeffect? I checked and IBM has not made use of these attributes in its products.

I don't have ANY confidence that the new HTML efforts will address drag and drop. It has not been highlighted as one of their work items. They did not get it done in HTML5 either and they are going to be focused on other functionality like web components.

So, if people are not happy with the features, and nobody has made use of them yet, and HTML has dropped the ball, then something new will need to be created and that will take some time as it will require us to work with the new HTML working group to create something both will be accepting of. Right now HTML is in the midst of rechartering. So, to do this differently we will need to look to ARIA 2.0. A lot of time was spent on those two attributes and others have said they are not intuitive, and don't work, but they have not stepped forward to put something on the table that they say would satisfy them. Again, we are looking at ARIA 2.0 if we are going to deprecate these.

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger

[Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---06/21/2015 06:10:14 PM---I agree that the way that drag and drop is worded is prob]Bryan Garaventa ---06/21/2015 06:10:14 PM---I agree that the way that drag and drop is worded is problematic, but I would like to ask about the

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>" <lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>>
Cc: "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>>, "'WAI Protocols & Formats'" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Date: 06/21/2015 06:10 PM
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect

________________________________




I agree that the way that drag and drop is worded is problematic, but I would like to ask about the value of providing textual equivalent feedback using these attributes.

I have never seen the value of using the ARIA drag and drop attributes as indicated in the spec for implementing behavior, because that is confusingly worded.

However, when there is drag and drop functionality attached to a particular widget or element, these attributes are useful for conveying that this functionality exists for non-sighted screen reader users. This is more in the sense of a textual equivalent.

E.G Within GWT, there is a tree component. You can do many things with this, and one of the options is to drag and drop tree leaf nodes from one place to another.

If these attributes were no longer supported, how would a non-sighted user know when an item was ‘grabbed’, and where within the tree a focusable element was enabled for being ‘droppable’?

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 11:03 AM
To: lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>
Cc: 'James Craig'; 'WAI Protocols & Formats'
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect


Just to be clear HTML5 tried to get common drag and drop done and it bombed. Perhaps the new web applications group can do a better job.


Rich Schwerdtfeger

[Inactive hide details for Léonie Watson ---06/19/2015 06:46:57 AM---> From: James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com] > Sent: 19 Ju]Léonie Watson ---06/19/2015 06:46:57 AM---> From: James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com] > Sent: 19 June 2015 10:43

From: Léonie Watson <lwatson@paciellogroup.com<mailto:lwatson@paciellogroup.com>>
To: "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>>, "'WAI Protocols & Formats'" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Date: 06/19/2015 06:46 AM
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect

________________________________





> From: James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com]
> Sent: 19 June 2015 10:43
> In an effort to reduce the author complexity of ARIA, I'd like to propose
the
> spec's first deprecations: @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect.

+1

[...]

> Accessible drag & drop is a feature that may be better left to native
> implementations. It could potentially be solved by some future version of
> ARIA, but I do not believe @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect do the job.
> It's a bad API that should be culled from the 1.1 spec.


Do you think it would be worth proposing an HTML5 extension for this?
>
> In case there is any objection: I could be convinced to drop the call for
> deprecation if anyone can point to a single real-world web application
(not a
> test case) that works well in any browser+screenreader combo. The example
> should use @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect accurately in conjunction
> with native or scripted drag and drop behavior.


Even in test cases using ARIA to spec, I haven't yet found an example that
works reliably across all (or even most) browser/AT combinations.


Léonie.

--
Léonie Watson - Senior accessibility engineer
@LeonieWatson @PacielloGroup PacielloGroup.com