RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect

I understand. We did spend a lot of time on their specification and we had
found them to work in the absence of the HTML working group drag and drop
work. The reality is that the drag and drop work did not materialize from
HTML.

So, then there is the definition of "deprecation".  We could say that our
intent is to replace these two attributes with something new in ARIA 2.0.
This would keep them around and let consumers know that a replacement is
coming. So, we say we are going to keep these around until a replacement is
found in ARIA 2.0.

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger



From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com>, "lwatson@paciellogroup.com"
            <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "'WAI Protocols & Formats'"
            <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date: 06/22/2015 09:56 AM
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect



They haven’t made use of these attributes in the out-of-box component, but
we did add them in a custom implementation we did about two years ago for a
client where the correct feedback was being conveyed when arrowing within
the tree and invoking the drag and drop functionality from the keyboard.

I’m just a bit concerned about this support just disappearing like a carpet
being pulled out from beneath them.




From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 7:40 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa
Cc: 'James Craig'; lwatson@paciellogroup.com; 'WAI Protocols & Formats'
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect



Has GWT made use of aria-grabbed and aria-dropeffect? I checked and IBM has
not made use of these attributes in its products.

I don't have ANY confidence that the new HTML efforts will address drag and
drop. It has not been highlighted as one of their work items. They did not
get it done in HTML5 either and they are going to be focused on other
functionality like web components.

So, if people are not happy with the features, and nobody has made use of
them yet, and HTML has dropped the ball, then something new will need to be
created and that will take some time as it will require us to work with the
new HTML working group to create something both will be accepting of. Right
now HTML is in the midst of rechartering. So, to do this differently we
will need to look to ARIA 2.0. A lot of time was spent on those two
attributes and others have said they are not intuitive, and don't work, but
they have not stepped forward to put something on the table that they say
would satisfy them. Again, we are looking at ARIA 2.0 if we are going to
deprecate these.

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger

Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---06/21/2015 06:10:14 PM---I
agree that the way that drag and drop is worded is probBryan Garaventa
---06/21/2015 06:10:14 PM---I agree that the way that drag and drop is
worded is problematic, but I would like to ask about the

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "lwatson@paciellogroup.com" <
lwatson@paciellogroup.com>
Cc: "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com>, "'WAI Protocols & Formats'" <
public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date: 06/21/2015 06:10 PM
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect




I agree that the way that drag and drop is worded is problematic, but I
would like to ask about the value of providing textual equivalent feedback
using these attributes.

I have never seen the value of using the ARIA drag and drop attributes as
indicated in the spec for implementing behavior, because that is
confusingly worded.

However, when there is drag and drop functionality attached to a particular
widget or element, these attributes are useful for conveying that this
functionality exists for non-sighted screen reader users. This is more in
the sense of a textual equivalent.

E.G Within GWT, there is a tree component. You can do many things with
this, and one of the options is to drag and drop tree leaf nodes from one
place to another.

If these attributes were no longer supported, how would a non-sighted user
know when an item was ‘grabbed’, and where within the tree a focusable
element was enabled for being ‘droppable’?

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 11:03 AM
To: lwatson@paciellogroup.com
Cc: 'James Craig'; 'WAI Protocols & Formats'
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect



Just to be clear HTML5 tried to get common drag and drop done and it
bombed. Perhaps the new web applications group can do a better job.


Rich Schwerdtfeger

Inactive hide details for Léonie Watson ---06/19/2015 06:46:57 AM---> From:
James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com] > Sent: 19 JuLéonie Watson
---06/19/2015 06:46:57 AM---> From: James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com] >
Sent: 19 June 2015 10:43

From: Léonie Watson <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>
To: "'James Craig'" <jcraig@apple.com>, "'WAI Protocols & Formats'" <
public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date: 06/19/2015 06:46 AM
Subject: RE: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect





> From: James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com]
> Sent: 19 June 2015 10:43
> In an effort to reduce the author complexity of ARIA, I'd like to propose
the
> spec's first deprecations: @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect.

+1

[...]

> Accessible drag & drop is a feature that may be better left to native
> implementations. It could potentially be solved by some future version of
> ARIA, but I do not believe @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect do the job.
> It's a bad API that should be culled from the 1.1 spec.


Do you think it would be worth proposing an HTML5 extension for this?
>
> In case there is any objection: I could be convinced to drop the call for
> deprecation if anyone can point to a single real-world web application
(not a
> test case) that works well in any browser+screenreader combo. The example
> should use @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect accurately in conjunction
> with native or scripted drag and drop behavior.


Even in test cases using ARIA to spec, I haven't yet found an example that
works reliably across all (or even most) browser/AT combinations.


Léonie.

--
Léonie Watson - Senior accessibility engineer
@LeonieWatson @PacielloGroup PacielloGroup.com