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Minutes: February 12 WAI-ARIA Caucus

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:54:35 -0600
To: "WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF9E6C39EF.18744ECB-ON86257DEE.005C88E0-86257DEE.005CE394@us.ibm.com>

Minutes from the February 12 WAI-ARIA Caucus:


IRC log of aria on 2015-02-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:33:24 [RRSAgent]
      RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:33:24 [RRSAgent]
      logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-irc

17:33:26 [trackbot]
      RRSAgent, make logs member
17:33:26 [Zakim]
      Zakim has joined #aria
17:33:28 [trackbot]
      Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:33:28 [Zakim]
      I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the
      next hour, trackbot
17:33:29 [trackbot]
      Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:33:29 [trackbot]
      Date: 12 February 2015
17:33:34 [MichaelC]
      zakim, this is aria
17:33:34 [Zakim]
      sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named 'aria' in progress
      or scheduled at this time
17:33:39 [MichaelC]
      zakim, this is 2742
17:33:40 [Zakim]
      sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named '2742' in progress
      or scheduled at this time
17:33:47 [MichaelC]
      zakim, list conferences
17:33:47 [Zakim]
      I see Team_(wpay)16:59Z active
17:33:48 [asurkov]
      asurkov has joined #aria
17:33:49 [Zakim]
      also scheduled at this time are DATA_DWBP()12:00PM, HTML_WG()12:00PM,
      RWC_Audio()12:00PM, XML_XSLWG()11:30AM
17:34:01 [MichaelC]
      zakim, room for 25?
17:34:02 [Zakim]
      ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(aria)17:34Z scheduled with code 92473
      (WAIPF) for 60 minutes until 1834Z
17:34:07 [asurkov]
      hi, clown
17:34:14 [clown]
      hi asurkov
17:34:17 [clown]
17:34:44 [fesch]
      code 92473 not 2742?
17:34:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
17:35:12 [Zakim]
      Team_(aria)17:34Z has now started
17:35:20 [Zakim]
17:35:46 [Zakim]
17:35:58 [Zakim]
17:36:04 [clown]
      zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:04 [Zakim]
      +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:36:12 [clown]
      zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:12 [Zakim]
      ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:23 [Zakim]
17:36:31 [jamesn]
      jamesn has joined #aria
17:37:19 [jamesn]
      I get the conference is restricted at this time
17:37:23 [mattking]
      mattking has joined #aria
17:37:33 [fesch]
      use 92473
17:37:45 [Zakim]
17:37:55 [Zakim]
17:37:58 [jamesn]
      jamesn has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 12
      February at 16:30; Zakim 92473#
17:38:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]

17:38:16 [Zakim]
17:38:44 [mattking]
      zakim is telling me the conference is restricted
17:38:52 [mattking]
      i can not get in on phone
17:38:54 [jamesn]
      mattking - use 92473
17:39:08 [fesch]
      rich I can scribe
17:39:17 [fesch]
      scribe: fesch
17:39:21 [Zakim]
17:39:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      chair: Rich
17:39:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:39:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      RRSAgent, make log public
17:40:34 [fesch]
      all - you can use 92473 to get in the call
17:40:58 [fesch]
      Topic: aria-current
17:41:15 [clown]

17:41:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      - http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current

17:41:52 [fesch]
      mk: took an action for alternative text for a note - to better
      clarify current vs selected - not quite done yet
17:42:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]

17:43:04 [fesch]
      rs: matt will put in updated note and we can discuss next week if
17:43:17 [fesch]
17:43:17 [trackbot]
      action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic
      section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and
      role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:43:17 [trackbot]

17:43:46 [fesch]
      rs: needs Cynthia for 1561
17:44:35 [jongund]
      jongund has joined #aria
17:45:13 [Zakim]
17:45:49 [fesch]
      Topic: Table Support
17:45:56 [clown]
17:45:57 [trackbot]
      action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria
      1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
17:45:57 [trackbot]

17:46:15 [clown]
17:46:15 [trackbot]
      action-1293 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell
      and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:46:15 [trackbot]

17:46:40 [fesch]
      jd: lots of discussion on row index and column index....
17:46:49 [fesch]
      rs: what is the main issue?
17:47:12 [fesch]
      mk: people don't agree on the main purpose of rowindex and
17:47:17 [clown]
17:47:17 [trackbot]
      issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to
      more than just listitem and option -- closed
17:47:17 [trackbot]

17:47:58 [fesch]
      rs: describes use case of rowindex columnindex
17:48:44 [fesch]
      rs: wants something similar to pause and...
17:49:05 [fesch]
      mk: colindex had a more confusing use case
17:49:23 [joanie]
      s/pause and.../posinset and setsize/
17:49:29 [fesch]
      rs: what was the confusion
17:49:49 [Zakim]
17:50:37 [clown]

17:50:57 [clown]
      thread starts there ^
17:51:26 [bgaraventa1979]
      bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:51:34 [fesch]
      rs: not rowspan and colspan, so what appears to be missing is the
      number of rows and number of columns
17:52:03 [bgaraventa1979]
      zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:52:03 [Zakim]
      ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
17:52:31 [fesch]
      jd: if I think of spread sheets, you can freeze and hide rows and
17:52:55 [fesch]
      jd: believes this belongs on the cells - Alex doesn't
17:54:08 [fesch]
      jd: believes colindex belongs on cells, didn't care about rowindex
17:54:19 [Zakim]
17:54:33 [jamesn]
      cellindex should be on gridcell
17:54:41 [cyns]
      cyns has joined #aria
17:54:42 [fesch]
      mk: is this going to be defined as an attribute?
17:54:43 [jamesn]
      rowindex should be on row or gridcell
17:57:07 [fesch]
      rs: will take an action to provide more detail, it matters where as
      it can bloat dowload
17:58:20 [fesch]
      mk: doesn't see how ownership will work
17:58:53 [fesch]
      jd: what if I want to mark up a data table, a colindex can only go on
      a cell
17:59:09 [fesch]
      jn: what if you put it on the column header?
17:59:21 [fesch]
      jd: Oh sure, that is fine
17:59:59 [jamesn]
      allow both on the cell but also allow rowindex on row and colindex on
      the columnheader for convenience
18:00:11 [fesch]
      mk: it only works if you have a correct 1:1 mapping, so if someone
      does something where there is a multicell labeling structure, then
      you would make sure it gets assigned to the correct one
18:01:14 [fesch]
      mk: if you put it on a 1:1 cells that will work, but if there are 2
      numbers under a column - and you get these wonky structures
18:01:39 [fesch]
      rs: you could put the colindex in the cell, then have it span cells,
      at the cell level
18:01:51 [fesch]
      rs: would we do the same thing for rowindex
18:02:11 [jamesn]
      Janina - 92473
18:02:19 [janina]
18:02:39 [Zakim]
18:02:44 [janina]
      zakim, ??P19 is me
18:02:46 [Zakim]
      +janina; got it
18:03:11 [fesch]
      rs: the important thing is the rowindex or colindex of the start - so
      if they span 3...
18:03:39 [newtron]
      newtron has joined #aria
18:04:16 [clown]
18:04:28 [fesch]
      mk: in spereadsheets one dimension is numbered and one is lettered,
      so these are always numeric - or do the authors have control over
      number vs letter?
18:04:42 [fesch]
      mk: does the value always have to be a number?
18:04:58 [asurkov]
      I think I like to have separate attributes for row/column spans
18:05:01 [fesch]
      rs: if it was just a string might be a challenge
18:05:03 [Zakim]
18:05:14 [Susann_Keohane]
      Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
18:05:43 [fesch]
      jd: potentially headers have a different properties, there are things
      that allow roman numerals and we can follow it
18:05:43 [clown]

18:05:53 [fesch]
      mk: sort of like a styling thing
18:06:15 [fesch]
      jd: without deep diving.... (starts deep diving)...
18:06:44 [fesch]
      jn: if they display on the screen they are similar to row headers
18:07:00 [fesch]
      mk: they are different
18:07:47 [fesch]
      rs: important to have a span and have them relate to the start, no
      notion of a column in HTML 5
18:08:15 [fesch]
      rs: we have a rowindex which is the start of the row, and a colindex
      and max
18:08:29 [fesch]
      jn: what does max mean?
18:08:33 [clown]
      aria-rowsize and aria-colsize?
18:08:52 [asurkov]
      maybe rowcount?
18:08:58 [fesch]
      rs: like aria-setsize and aria-posinset
18:09:33 [fesch]
      mk: do we want such a long attribute name - if you are putting on
      every cell
18:10:13 [fesch]
18:10:13 [trackbot]
      action-1293 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell
      and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:10:13 [trackbot]

18:10:15 [clown]
18:10:15 [trackbot]
      issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to
      more than just listitem and option -- closed
18:10:15 [trackbot]

18:10:29 [fesch]
      rs: taking action 1293
18:11:06 [clown]
18:11:06 [trackbot]
      action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria
      1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
18:11:06 [trackbot]

18:11:16 [fesch]
      jd: will turn the table stuff into a branch
18:11:51 [fesch]
      jg: some elements proposed were eliminated
18:12:19 [fesch]
      mk: count for last value, not max
18:12:42 [fesch]
18:12:42 [trackbot]
      Action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus
      -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN
18:12:42 [trackbot]

18:13:13 [fesch]
      Topic: handling of generic roles
18:13:23 [fesch]
18:13:23 [trackbot]
      action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic
      section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and
      role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:13:23 [trackbot]

18:13:38 [mattking]
18:13:38 [trackbot]
      action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic
      section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and
      role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:13:38 [trackbot]

18:13:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]

18:14:37 [fesch]
      rs: has proposal - map a div to a section, just a container, we are
      overusing group
18:14:59 [fesch]
      rs: list items use group on MacOS
18:15:14 [fesch]
      CS: we don't have control types
18:15:24 [fesch]
      rs: we need something generic
18:15:37 [fesch]
      cs: we may need to accept group has become generic
18:16:06 [fesch]
      mk: worry about existing implementations, but might fix some issues
18:16:23 [fesch]
      mk: people use group where it makes noise
18:16:35 [Zakim]
18:16:57 [fesch]
      cs: big legacy of our mapping, narrator ignores group
18:17:07 [LJWatson]
      zakim, who is on ehe phone?
18:17:07 [Zakim]
      I don't understand your question, LJWatson.
18:17:13 [fesch]
      rs: reads section of action
18:17:21 [LJWatson]
      zakim, who is on the phone?
18:17:21 [Zakim]
      On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger,
      Joanmarie_Diggs, ??P7, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper (muted),
      Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa,
18:17:24 [Zakim]
      ... [Microsoft], janina, Susann_Keohane, [IPcaller]
18:17:37 [LJWatson]
      zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:17:37 [Zakim]
      +LJWatson; got it
18:17:55 [clown]

18:18:44 [fesch]
      mk: reading group children
18:19:03 [fesch]
      rs: when we use role=group now, where are we using it?
18:19:20 [fesch]
      rs: are we using it for radio group?
18:19:23 [clown]

18:20:06 [fesch]
      mk: if you generize group, it won't affect it's children
18:20:15 [jamesn]
      it is a generic replacement for fieldset/legend too
18:20:51 [fesch]
      rs: when you encounter group, do you expose group?
18:21:02 [fesch]
      cs: IE exposes group, narrator ignores it
18:21:26 [fesch]
      cs: a list is used a list - we treat lists and groups differently
18:21:30 [fesch]
      too late
18:21:52 [fesch]
      cs: we expose fieldset - which has a visual rendering
18:22:07 [clown]

18:22:15 [fesch]
      cs: windows forms has them too
18:23:02 [fesch]
      jn: fieldset maps to group for everybody but ATK
18:23:30 [clown]
      s/jn: fieldset maps to group/js: fieldset maps to group/
18:23:35 [fesch]
      cs: narrator does read groups in some cases, but it may have to deal
      with focusability ..
18:23:53 [fesch]
      cs: willing to tweak behavior
18:24:51 [fesch]
      rs: making generic takes care of legacy, but if you put it on a
      table, everything in the table comes out as groups
18:25:12 [fesch]
      jd: a panel is a generic group of widgets
18:25:50 [fesch]
      rs: want to be consistent, when you have a generic container with no
      label - want one mapping across implementations
18:27:28 [fesch]
      rs: typically in SVG drawing attributes don't map, but if you make it
      significant - maybe by putting text on it... then we would like one
      consistent mapping between HTML and SVG
18:27:33 [clown]

18:28:23 [fesch]
      jd: we in ATK ... we solved xxxx by putting in role ATK_Static,
      worried that you will ruin stuff for us when we don't have a problem
18:28:38 [fesch]
      mk: how does a div map in ATK?
18:28:52 [fesch]
      chorus: role section
18:30:19 [fesch]
      mk: want consistent role mapped for div and section
18:30:31 [fesch]
      rs: what is confusing to me is panel and section
18:30:42 [fesch]
      js: no they are different
18:31:19 [fesch]
      mk: what we may want to come up with another aria role that maps to
      panel in ATK...
18:31:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:32:14 [fesch]
      jd: if texty stuff maps to group and widgety stuff maps to panel I am
18:32:25 [clown]

18:33:15 [fesch]
      cs: on windows the pane role is a good one for widgety stuff
18:33:34 [fesch]
      jd: your pane is our panel (NO PUNS)
18:33:54 [cyns]
      UIA pane from MSDN "The Pane control type is used to represent an
      object within a frame or document window. Users can navigate between
      pane controls and within the contents of the current pane, but cannot
      navigate between items in different panes. Thus, pane controls
      represent a level of grouping lower than windows or documents, but
      above individual controls. The user navigates between panes by
      pressing TAB, F6, or CTRL+TAB, depending on the context.
18:34:11 [cyns]

18:34:13 [fesch]
      mk: a problem with apple is both meaningful groups and non meaningful
      groups are mapped to groups
18:34:54 [fesch]
      jd: apple is missing a subrole for list, may need a couple more
18:35:10 [fesch]
      rs: may need to create a panel role
18:35:34 [fesch]
      mk: a lot of misuse of group is when we didn't have a better way
18:35:45 [fesch]
      mk: need role for span
18:36:23 [fesch]
      CS: when we were talking about annotations may have discussed it
18:36:26 [Zakim]
18:37:13 [cyns]
      the network knew I was talking ;)
18:37:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
18:37:27 [fesch]
      mk: can't finish this actionw without a mapping for span
18:37:33 [clown]

18:37:35 [cyns]
      I think we may have covered the "span" thing when discussing
18:37:51 [fesch]
      mk: can't map span to same thing as div
18:38:30 [fesch]
      jd: span needs to be updated for ATK
18:38:58 [fesch]
      rs: do we agree we need some sort of panel role?
18:39:33 [cyns]
      generally, yes. Why call it panel an not pane?
18:39:40 [fesch]
      mk: where does it go in the hieracrhy?
18:39:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      action: joanie create a proposal for a panel role and modify the
      group role to be more generic
18:39:48 [trackbot]
      Created ACTION-1581 - Create a proposal for a panel role and modify
      the group role to be more generic [on Joanmarie Diggs - due
18:39:50 [cyns]
      just to be platform-agnostic for a moment...
18:40:03 [fesch]
      mk: is panel the right name for this?
18:40:26 [fesch]
      mk: does tabpanel have children?
18:41:00 [fesch]
      mk: should the new panel be a child of section and children of group
      move over to panel.
18:41:19 [fesch]
      mk: rename group to panel.. and make a new role group
18:41:36 [fesch]
      rs: can JD make a branch?
18:43:00 [LJWatson]

18:43:08 [fesch]
      lw: can i mention the panel work?
18:43:42 [fesch]
      lw: looking at a panel as a native HTML concept,
18:43:56 [clown]
      "On it's own, a panel may be used anywhere sectioning content is
      used, it is granted an aria-role="group"."
18:44:19 [fesch]
      lw: have a single HTML architecture that can be dispalyed in multiple
      ways - which we currently use widgets for
18:44:23 [jamesn]
      sounds like a good idea
18:44:53 [fesch]
      lw: a single panel seems weak
18:45:10 [fesch]
      lw: important thing is getting a native HTML element
18:46:06 [fesch]
      jd: lets work together...
18:46:22 [fesch]
      jd & lw will coordinate
18:47:49 [clown]
18:47:49 [trackbot]
      action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus
      -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN
18:47:49 [trackbot]

18:47:56 [clown]
18:47:56 [trackbot]
      issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a
      region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- open
18:47:56 [trackbot]

18:47:57 [fesch]
      mk: wants to discuss aria-hasmangedfocus
18:48:04 [jongund]
      jongund has joined #aria
18:48:24 [fesch]
      rs: would like to make a list interactive and use arrow keys
18:48:39 [fesch]
      mk: proposes a separate role
18:48:58 [fesch]
      mk: big problem with an attribute when it gets to AT,
18:49:02 [fesch]
      rs: why?
18:49:46 [fesch]
      mk: may be ok if limited to a narrow group of roles ( list) which
      gives ability for list view and tree view
18:49:58 [fesch]
      jn: lets not limit it
18:50:48 [fesch]
      mk: all the name is saying that there is managed interaction on a
      static structure.
18:51:14 [fesch]
      jn: using role of application is hacky,
18:51:55 [fesch]
      mk: roles communicate interaction and
18:52:21 [fesch]
      bg: is that like a modality?
18:52:38 [fesch]
      mk: application does not give the user any idea what the interaction
      might be
18:52:53 [fesch]
      mk: hasmangedfocus is a solution looking for a problem
18:53:10 [fesch]
      jn: we have a ton of places where we need this
18:53:55 [fesch]
      mk: maybe we need additional application roles, but application role
      is problematic for AT as it doesn't tell you about interactiviyt
18:56:31 [fesch]
      mk: a toolbar should have multiple inheritance,
18:56:52 [fesch]
      rs: list normally does not have arrow key navigation, you may want
18:57:16 [fesch]
      mk: should solve that with a role that inherits from widget
18:57:44 [fesch]
      mk: if we have widget role, it should not map to a static element
18:58:17 [fesch]
      jn: there are cases where we don't have the appropriate role - like a
      widget role, or listbox, which is hacky and cheesy
18:58:47 [fesch]
      bg: has use cases where this important, one case where there is no
      role for columns
18:58:55 [fesch]
      bg: problems with grids as well
18:59:23 [fesch]
      bg: if need a modality of different widget types, that might be a
      valuable use case
18:59:39 [fesch]
      bg: may have a widget that does two things at one time.
19:00:02 [fesch]
      bg: task was able to make it accessible
19:00:43 [fesch]
      bg: solved using role=application
19:01:01 [Zakim]
19:03:01 [fesch]
      mk: as a general principle that we would take a semantic of documents
      and turn them into a role-less widget. leave HTML semantics out of
19:03:40 [fesch]
      rrsagent, draft minutes
19:03:40 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-minutes.html fesch
19:04:22 [Zakim]
19:04:24 [Zakim]
19:04:35 [Zakim]
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19:04:49 [Zakim]
19:04:50 [Zakim]
19:04:50 [Zakim]
19:04:52 [Zakim]
19:04:52 [Zakim]
19:04:53 [Zakim]
19:04:55 [Zakim]
19:09:55 [Zakim]
      disconnecting the lone participant, Susann_Keohane, in
19:09:57 [Zakim]
      Team_(aria)17:34Z has ended
19:09:57 [Zakim]
      Attendees were fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
      Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper, Matt_King,
      Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, [Microsoft], janina,
19:09:57 [Zakim]
      ... Susann_Keohane, LJWatson
19:34:45 [clown]
      clown has joined #aria
20:10:28 [asurkov]
      asurkov has joined #aria
20:52:50 [Zakim]
      Zakim has left #aria
21:24:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
      richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
21:57:05 [clown]
      clown has left #aria
23:08:53 [newtron_]
      newtron_ has joined #aria
      Rich Schwerdtfeger
Received on Monday, 16 February 2015 16:55:13 UTC

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