- From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:54:35 -0600
- To: "WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <OF9E6C39EF.18744ECB-ON86257DEE.005C88E0-86257DEE.005CE394@us.ibm.com>
Minutes from the February 12 WAI-ARIA Caucus: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-minutes.html Text: IRC log of aria on 2015-02-12 Timestamps are in UTC. 17:33:24 [RRSAgent] RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:33:24 [RRSAgent] logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-irc 17:33:26 [trackbot] RRSAgent, make logs member 17:33:26 [Zakim] Zakim has joined #aria 17:33:28 [trackbot] Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 17:33:28 [Zakim] I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 17:33:29 [trackbot] Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 17:33:29 [trackbot] Date: 12 February 2015 17:33:34 [MichaelC] zakim, this is aria 17:33:34 [Zakim] sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named 'aria' in progress or scheduled at this time 17:33:39 [MichaelC] zakim, this is 2742 17:33:40 [Zakim] sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named '2742' in progress or scheduled at this time 17:33:47 [MichaelC] zakim, list conferences 17:33:47 [Zakim] I see Team_(wpay)16:59Z active 17:33:48 [asurkov] asurkov has joined #aria 17:33:49 [Zakim] also scheduled at this time are DATA_DWBP()12:00PM, HTML_WG()12:00PM, RWC_Audio()12:00PM, XML_XSLWG()11:30AM 17:34:01 [MichaelC] zakim, room for 25? 17:34:02 [Zakim] ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(aria)17:34Z scheduled with code 92473 (WAIPF) for 60 minutes until 1834Z 17:34:07 [asurkov] hi, clown 17:34:14 [clown] hi asurkov 17:34:17 [clown] welcome. 17:34:44 [fesch] code 92473 not 2742? 17:34:57 [richardschwerdtfeger] richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 17:35:12 [Zakim] Team_(aria)17:34Z has now started 17:35:20 [Zakim] +[GVoice] 17:35:46 [Zakim] +fesch 17:35:58 [Zakim] +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 17:36:04 [clown] zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:36:04 [Zakim] +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 17:36:12 [clown] zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:36:12 [Zakim] ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:36:23 [Zakim] +Joanmarie_Diggs 17:36:31 [jamesn] jamesn has joined #aria 17:37:19 [jamesn] I get the conference is restricted at this time 17:37:23 [mattking] mattking has joined #aria 17:37:33 [fesch] use 92473 17:37:45 [Zakim] +??P7 17:37:55 [Zakim] +James_Nurthen 17:37:58 [jamesn] jamesn has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 12 February at 16:30; Zakim 92473# 17:38:07 [richardschwerdtfeger] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0019.html 17:38:16 [Zakim] +??P10 17:38:44 [mattking] zakim is telling me the conference is restricted 17:38:52 [mattking] i can not get in on phone 17:38:54 [jamesn] mattking - use 92473 17:39:08 [fesch] rich I can scribe 17:39:17 [fesch] scribe: fesch 17:39:21 [Zakim] +Matt_King 17:39:23 [richardschwerdtfeger] chair: Rich 17:39:32 [richardschwerdtfeger] meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus 17:39:39 [richardschwerdtfeger] RRSAgent, make log public 17:40:34 [fesch] all - you can use 92473 to get in the call 17:40:58 [fesch] Topic: aria-current 17:41:15 [clown] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current 17:41:25 [richardschwerdtfeger] - http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current 17:41:52 [fesch] mk: took an action for alternative text for a note - to better clarify current vs selected - not quite done yet 17:42:40 [richardschwerdtfeger] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current 17:43:04 [fesch] rs: matt will put in updated note and we can discuss next week if needed 17:43:17 [fesch] action-1561 17:43:17 [trackbot] action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN 17:43:17 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1561 17:43:46 [fesch] rs: needs Cynthia for 1561 17:44:35 [jongund] jongund has joined #aria 17:45:13 [Zakim] +Jon_Gunderson 17:45:49 [fesch] Topic: Table Support 17:45:56 [clown] action-1395 17:45:57 [trackbot] action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN 17:45:57 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395 17:46:15 [clown] action-1293 17:46:15 [trackbot] action-1293 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN 17:46:15 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293 17:46:40 [fesch] jd: lots of discussion on row index and column index.... 17:46:49 [fesch] rs: what is the main issue? 17:47:12 [fesch] mk: people don't agree on the main purpose of rowindex and columnindex 17:47:17 [clown] issue-398? 17:47:17 [trackbot] issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- closed 17:47:17 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398 17:47:58 [fesch] rs: describes use case of rowindex columnindex 17:48:44 [fesch] rs: wants something similar to pause and... 17:49:05 [fesch] mk: colindex had a more confusing use case 17:49:23 [joanie] s/pause and.../posinset and setsize/ 17:49:29 [fesch] rs: what was the confusion 17:49:49 [Zakim] +Bryan_Garaventa 17:50:37 [clown] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0049.html 17:50:57 [clown] thread starts there ^ 17:51:26 [bgaraventa1979] bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria 17:51:34 [fesch] rs: not rowspan and colspan, so what appears to be missing is the number of rows and number of columns 17:52:03 [bgaraventa1979] zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa 17:52:03 [Zakim] ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa 17:52:31 [fesch] jd: if I think of spread sheets, you can freeze and hide rows and columns 17:52:55 [fesch] jd: believes this belongs on the cells - Alex doesn't 17:54:08 [fesch] jd: believes colindex belongs on cells, didn't care about rowindex 17:54:19 [Zakim] +[Microsoft] 17:54:33 [jamesn] cellindex should be on gridcell 17:54:41 [cyns] cyns has joined #aria 17:54:42 [fesch] mk: is this going to be defined as an attribute? 17:54:43 [jamesn] rowindex should be on row or gridcell 17:57:07 [fesch] rs: will take an action to provide more detail, it matters where as it can bloat dowload 17:58:20 [fesch] mk: doesn't see how ownership will work 17:58:53 [fesch] jd: what if I want to mark up a data table, a colindex can only go on a cell 17:59:09 [fesch] jn: what if you put it on the column header? 17:59:21 [fesch] jd: Oh sure, that is fine 17:59:59 [jamesn] allow both on the cell but also allow rowindex on row and colindex on the columnheader for convenience 18:00:11 [fesch] mk: it only works if you have a correct 1:1 mapping, so if someone does something where there is a multicell labeling structure, then you would make sure it gets assigned to the correct one 18:01:14 [fesch] mk: if you put it on a 1:1 cells that will work, but if there are 2 numbers under a column - and you get these wonky structures 18:01:39 [fesch] rs: you could put the colindex in the cell, then have it span cells, at the cell level 18:01:51 [fesch] rs: would we do the same thing for rowindex 18:02:11 [jamesn] Janina - 92473 18:02:19 [janina] OK 18:02:39 [Zakim] +??P19 18:02:44 [janina] zakim, ??P19 is me 18:02:46 [Zakim] +janina; got it 18:03:11 [fesch] rs: the important thing is the rowindex or colindex of the start - so if they span 3... 18:03:39 [newtron] newtron has joined #aria 18:04:16 [clown] rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-colspan 18:04:28 [fesch] mk: in spereadsheets one dimension is numbered and one is lettered, so these are always numeric - or do the authors have control over number vs letter? 18:04:42 [fesch] mk: does the value always have to be a number? 18:04:58 [asurkov] I think I like to have separate attributes for row/column spans 18:05:01 [fesch] rs: if it was just a string might be a challenge 18:05:03 [Zakim] +Susann_Keohane 18:05:14 [Susann_Keohane] Susann_Keohane has joined #aria 18:05:43 [fesch] jd: potentially headers have a different properties, there are things that allow roman numerals and we can follow it 18:05:43 [clown] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#details-id-170 18:05:53 [fesch] mk: sort of like a styling thing 18:06:15 [fesch] jd: without deep diving.... (starts deep diving)... 18:06:44 [fesch] jn: if they display on the screen they are similar to row headers 18:07:00 [fesch] mk: they are different 18:07:47 [fesch] rs: important to have a span and have them relate to the start, no notion of a column in HTML 5 18:08:15 [fesch] rs: we have a rowindex which is the start of the row, and a colindex and max 18:08:29 [fesch] jn: what does max mean? 18:08:33 [clown] aria-rowsize and aria-colsize? 18:08:52 [asurkov] maybe rowcount? 18:08:58 [fesch] rs: like aria-setsize and aria-posinset 18:09:33 [fesch] mk: do we want such a long attribute name - if you are putting on every cell 18:10:13 [fesch] action-1293 18:10:13 [trackbot] action-1293 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN 18:10:13 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293 18:10:15 [clown] issue-398? 18:10:15 [trackbot] issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- closed 18:10:15 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398 18:10:29 [fesch] rs: taking action 1293 18:11:06 [clown] action-1395 18:11:06 [trackbot] action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN 18:11:06 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395 18:11:16 [fesch] jd: will turn the table stuff into a branch 18:11:51 [fesch] jg: some elements proposed were eliminated 18:12:19 [fesch] mk: count for last value, not max 18:12:42 [fesch] Action-1362 18:12:42 [trackbot] Action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN 18:12:42 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362 18:13:13 [fesch] Topic: handling of generic roles 18:13:23 [fesch] action-1561 18:13:23 [trackbot] action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN 18:13:23 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1561 18:13:38 [mattking] action-1561? 18:13:38 [trackbot] action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN 18:13:38 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1561 18:13:40 [richardschwerdtfeger] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0104.html 18:14:37 [fesch] rs: has proposal - map a div to a section, just a container, we are overusing group 18:14:59 [fesch] rs: list items use group on MacOS 18:15:14 [fesch] CS: we don't have control types 18:15:24 [fesch] rs: we need something generic 18:15:37 [fesch] cs: we may need to accept group has become generic 18:16:06 [fesch] mk: worry about existing implementations, but might fix some issues 18:16:23 [fesch] mk: people use group where it makes noise 18:16:35 [Zakim] +[IPcaller] 18:16:57 [fesch] cs: big legacy of our mapping, narrator ignores group 18:17:07 [LJWatson] zakim, who is on ehe phone? 18:17:07 [Zakim] I don't understand your question, LJWatson. 18:17:13 [fesch] rs: reads section of action 18:17:21 [LJWatson] zakim, who is on the phone? 18:17:21 [Zakim] On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, ??P7, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper (muted), Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, 18:17:24 [Zakim] ... [Microsoft], janina, Susann_Keohane, [IPcaller] 18:17:37 [LJWatson] zakim, [IPcaller] is me 18:17:37 [Zakim] +LJWatson; got it 18:17:55 [clown] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group 18:18:44 [fesch] mk: reading group children 18:19:03 [fesch] rs: when we use role=group now, where are we using it? 18:19:20 [fesch] rs: are we using it for radio group? 18:19:23 [clown] http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#radiogroup 18:20:06 [fesch] mk: if you generize group, it won't affect it's children 18:20:15 [jamesn] it is a generic replacement for fieldset/legend too 18:20:51 [fesch] rs: when you encounter group, do you expose group? 18:21:02 [fesch] cs: IE exposes group, narrator ignores it 18:21:26 [fesch] cs: a list is used a list - we treat lists and groups differently 18:21:30 [fesch] too late 18:21:52 [fesch] cs: we expose fieldset - which has a visual rendering 18:22:07 [clown] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-fieldset 18:22:15 [fesch] cs: windows forms has them too 18:23:02 [fesch] jn: fieldset maps to group for everybody but ATK 18:23:30 [clown] s/jn: fieldset maps to group/js: fieldset maps to group/ 18:23:35 [fesch] cs: narrator does read groups in some cases, but it may have to deal with focusability .. 18:23:53 [fesch] cs: willing to tweak behavior 18:24:51 [fesch] rs: making generic takes care of legacy, but if you put it on a table, everything in the table comes out as groups 18:25:12 [fesch] jd: a panel is a generic group of widgets 18:25:50 [fesch] rs: want to be consistent, when you have a generic container with no label - want one mapping across implementations 18:27:28 [fesch] rs: typically in SVG drawing attributes don't map, but if you make it significant - maybe by putting text on it... then we would like one consistent mapping between HTML and SVG 18:27:33 [clown] https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole 18:28:23 [fesch] jd: we in ATK ... we solved xxxx by putting in role ATK_Static, worried that you will ruin stuff for us when we don't have a problem 18:28:38 [fesch] mk: how does a div map in ATK? 18:28:52 [fesch] chorus: role section 18:30:19 [fesch] mk: want consistent role mapped for div and section 18:30:31 [fesch] rs: what is confusing to me is panel and section 18:30:42 [fesch] js: no they are different 18:31:19 [fesch] mk: what we may want to come up with another aria role that maps to panel in ATK... 18:31:28 [richardschwerdtfeger] q? 18:32:14 [fesch] jd: if texty stuff maps to group and widgety stuff maps to panel I am happy 18:32:25 [clown] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-form 18:33:15 [fesch] cs: on windows the pane role is a good one for widgety stuff 18:33:34 [fesch] jd: your pane is our panel (NO PUNS) 18:33:54 [cyns] UIA pane from MSDN "The Pane control type is used to represent an object within a frame or document window. Users can navigate between pane controls and within the contents of the current pane, but cannot navigate between items in different panes. Thus, pane controls represent a level of grouping lower than windows or documents, but above individual controls. The user navigates between panes by pressing TAB, F6, or CTRL+TAB, depending on the context. 18:34:11 [cyns] https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671639 (v=vs.85).aspx 18:34:13 [fesch] mk: a problem with apple is both meaningful groups and non meaningful groups are mapped to groups 18:34:54 [fesch] jd: apple is missing a subrole for list, may need a couple more subroles 18:35:10 [fesch] rs: may need to create a panel role 18:35:34 [fesch] mk: a lot of misuse of group is when we didn't have a better way 18:35:45 [fesch] mk: need role for span 18:36:23 [fesch] CS: when we were talking about annotations may have discussed it 18:36:26 [Zakim] -[Microsoft] 18:37:13 [cyns] the network knew I was talking ;) 18:37:19 [richardschwerdtfeger] :-) 18:37:27 [fesch] mk: can't finish this actionw without a mapping for span 18:37:33 [clown] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-span 18:37:35 [cyns] I think we may have covered the "span" thing when discussing annotations 18:37:51 [fesch] mk: can't map span to same thing as div 18:38:30 [fesch] jd: span needs to be updated for ATK 18:38:58 [fesch] rs: do we agree we need some sort of panel role? 18:39:33 [cyns] generally, yes. Why call it panel an not pane? 18:39:40 [fesch] mk: where does it go in the hieracrhy? 18:39:47 [richardschwerdtfeger] action: joanie create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic 18:39:48 [trackbot] Created ACTION-1581 - Create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-02-19]. 18:39:50 [cyns] just to be platform-agnostic for a moment... 18:40:03 [fesch] mk: is panel the right name for this? 18:40:26 [fesch] mk: does tabpanel have children? 18:41:00 [fesch] mk: should the new panel be a child of section and children of group move over to panel. 18:41:19 [fesch] mk: rename group to panel.. and make a new role group 18:41:36 [fesch] rs: can JD make a branch? 18:43:00 [LJWatson] http://bkardell.github.io/common-panel/ 18:43:08 [fesch] lw: can i mention the panel work? 18:43:42 [fesch] lw: looking at a panel as a native HTML concept, 18:43:56 [clown] "On it's own, a panel may be used anywhere sectioning content is used, it is granted an aria-role="group"." 18:44:19 [fesch] lw: have a single HTML architecture that can be dispalyed in multiple ways - which we currently use widgets for 18:44:23 [jamesn] sounds like a good idea 18:44:53 [fesch] lw: a single panel seems weak 18:45:10 [fesch] lw: important thing is getting a native HTML element 18:46:06 [fesch] jd: lets work together... 18:46:22 [fesch] jd & lw will coordinate 18:47:49 [clown] action-1362 18:47:49 [trackbot] action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN 18:47:49 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362 18:47:56 [clown] issue-640 18:47:56 [trackbot] issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- open 18:47:56 [trackbot] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640 18:47:57 [fesch] mk: wants to discuss aria-hasmangedfocus 18:48:04 [jongund] jongund has joined #aria 18:48:24 [fesch] rs: would like to make a list interactive and use arrow keys 18:48:39 [fesch] mk: proposes a separate role 18:48:58 [fesch] mk: big problem with an attribute when it gets to AT, 18:49:02 [fesch] rs: why? 18:49:46 [fesch] mk: may be ok if limited to a narrow group of roles ( list) which gives ability for list view and tree view 18:49:58 [fesch] jn: lets not limit it 18:50:48 [fesch] mk: all the name is saying that there is managed interaction on a static structure. 18:51:14 [fesch] jn: using role of application is hacky, 18:51:55 [fesch] mk: roles communicate interaction and 18:52:21 [fesch] bg: is that like a modality? 18:52:38 [fesch] mk: application does not give the user any idea what the interaction might be 18:52:53 [fesch] mk: hasmangedfocus is a solution looking for a problem 18:53:10 [fesch] jn: we have a ton of places where we need this 18:53:55 [fesch] mk: maybe we need additional application roles, but application role is problematic for AT as it doesn't tell you about interactiviyt 18:56:31 [fesch] mk: a toolbar should have multiple inheritance, 18:56:52 [fesch] rs: list normally does not have arrow key navigation, you may want that 18:57:16 [fesch] mk: should solve that with a role that inherits from widget 18:57:44 [fesch] mk: if we have widget role, it should not map to a static element 18:58:17 [fesch] jn: there are cases where we don't have the appropriate role - like a widget role, or listbox, which is hacky and cheesy 18:58:47 [fesch] bg: has use cases where this important, one case where there is no role for columns 18:58:55 [fesch] bg: problems with grids as well 18:59:23 [fesch] bg: if need a modality of different widget types, that might be a valuable use case 18:59:39 [fesch] bg: may have a widget that does two things at one time. 19:00:02 [fesch] bg: task was able to make it accessible 19:00:43 [fesch] bg: solved using role=application 19:01:01 [Zakim] -Jon_Gunderson 19:03:01 [fesch] mk: as a general principle that we would take a semantic of documents and turn them into a role-less widget. leave HTML semantics out of it. 19:03:40 [fesch] rrsagent, draft minutes 19:03:40 [RRSAgent] I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-minutes.html fesch 19:04:22 [Zakim] -James_Nurthen 19:04:24 [Zakim] -??P7 19:04:35 [Zakim] -Michael_Cooper 19:04:41 [Zakim] -fesch 19:04:49 [Zakim] -Joseph_Scheuhammer 19:04:50 [Zakim] -janina 19:04:50 [Zakim] -Matt_King 19:04:52 [Zakim] -Bryan_Garaventa 19:04:52 [Zakim] -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 19:04:53 [Zakim] -Joanmarie_Diggs 19:04:55 [Zakim] -LJWatson 19:09:55 [Zakim] disconnecting the lone participant, Susann_Keohane, in Team_(aria)17:34Z 19:09:57 [Zakim] Team_(aria)17:34Z has ended 19:09:57 [Zakim] Attendees were fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper, Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, [Microsoft], janina, 19:09:57 [Zakim] ... Susann_Keohane, LJWatson 19:34:45 [clown] clown has joined #aria 20:10:28 [asurkov] asurkov has joined #aria 20:52:50 [Zakim] Zakim has left #aria 21:24:33 [richardschwerdtfeger] richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 21:57:05 [clown] clown has left #aria 23:08:53 [newtron_] newtron_ has joined #aria Rich Schwerdtfeger
Received on Monday, 16 February 2015 16:55:13 UTC