MINUTES(draft): Monday, 2 February 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce

Minutes:

https://www.w3.org/2015/02/02-aria-apg-minutes.html



W3C
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
02 Feb 2015

See also: IRC log
Attendees

Present
Regrets
Chair
    SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
    jongund

Contents

    Topics
        Coding and documentation practices for APG examples
    Summary of Action Items

<trackbot> Date: 02 February 2015

<jamesn> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices TF

<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip

<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#alert

<jamesn> windowsplitter

<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitter

<jamesn> good morning

hello

trying to dial in

Anyone else having trouble dialing?

I just getting ringing

SIP

I will try my cell phone

<jamesn> Leonie is having problems too

<jamesn> scribe: jongund
Coding and documentation practices for APG examples

MK: Coding practices for the examples
... The first question, which JQuery to use?

JG: What documentation standards? Do we want prototype or objects

MK: What would people find more useful?
... I think we should follow some type of practices, so their would be consistency
... This would make it more useful

JG: Prototype allows reusing code

MK: People should be able to get everything they need, people will probably study them

LW: Shared components add complexity, some people will be using to learn

MK: The way we set them up, we want setup a separate directory

JG: We used inline event handlers, some people felt that was obsolete

MK: We need to make sure that we identify the event handlers in the documentation
... It seems to be really important that the documentation includes information about the elements

LJN: We can do that with JQuery, it makes it readable

JN: Pure javascript gets more wordy

MK: I am not sure where the examples will be hosted from, they will not be in git, but on the W3C site

<Birkir> Will join call in a minute or two, pardon late arrival and possible early departure.

LW: they will be on W3C site

MK: Normally W3C documents are standalone documents, these will have separate directories, directory structure will be need to be preserved as well

JN and LW: we can do that on the W3C site

JN: Just reference CDN version of JQuery

MK: Examples do not need to use same version of JQuery

JN: DO we need to support IE8?

AA: We do

BG: Having it supported is important, we don't know who will be coming to the site

MK; What is the downside of JQuery 1.11?

JN: Not very much, 2.X is quicker..

LW: Most people have stopped used IE8

AA: not US federal agencies

JN: You need to be stricker

AA: They don't care what IBM wants them to do

JN: If they are expecting accessibility on IE8, they are fooling themselves

LW: I don't think we should expect them to work in IE8

JN: or IE 9

MK: I went form IE8 to IE10

BG: It doesn't really matter if you use 1.11 or 2.X, they are most interchangable

AA: We did find some IE8 issues with Jaws today

MK: I am surprised that the APG call is gettting into this
... BG is making the point about degrading gracefully
... If you get errors in IE8 then it is not degrading

JN: We should be clear what versions the examples work on

MK: We do not expect the example to work with IE8 + Assistive Technology

BG: I am saying if you want the best experience use the latest version of browsers and AT

AA: I think you need to add AT to the mix

MK: The comment on every example?
... We pull in our common code, ....

LW: What is the oldest version of JQuery 2.X support?

JN: IE9
... No support for IE 6, 7 or 8

<jamesn> jQuery 2.x has the same API as jQuery 1.x, but does not support Internet Explorer 6, 7, or 8. All the notes in the jQuery 1.9 Upgrade Guide apply here as well. Since IE 8 is still relatively common, we recommend using the 1.x version unless you are certain no IE 6/7/8 users are visiting the site. Please read the 2.0 release notes carefully.

JN: Let's stick to JQuery 1.11

JG: Do the examples need to work in IE8?

JN: We should not lose sleep over IE8 compatibility

BG: It should work in IE8

JN: What I hear that if it doesn't work in IE8 we should not worry about it, great if it does, hard to test now

MK: You would need a dedicated machine

JG: Then why do we care about JQuery 1.11?

BG: We don't want people to go to the W3C site and have things blow up

JG: I think we should just say they are not designed to work in IE8

MK: I am writing a short note for every example page..., do we want to mention to specific browser versions

NK: Do we want to be more specific or more general

<Birkir> +a to that, let's have a QA note that states which browsers (maybe browsers and AT) examples were tested with. NO results guaranteed with other combinations, though people are free to try.

JG: I think we need to start a set of quality assurance process, what browsers, AT and OS do we test in?

MK: We can have a core set of test situations
... This will probably change over time
... The note will reflect how old the example is

LW: Something might work in a particluar browser combination
... Saying we tested and saying it works are two different things

MK: Even if we say JAWS 16, but then JAWS 17 it is broken

LW: What is the definition of passing that test

MK: It was designed for these combination of things
... We can hae some language along the lines of

LW: We can use "it was designed with", instead of "Tested with..."

JN: We can exclude things

MK: That is the primary thing of the note

LW: I was getting worried about...

MK: What we are comfortable working with

JN: Current platform FF with NVDA/Jaws....

AA: What about latest version, what happens 10 years from now

MK: FF has caused us problems, we had problems with layout tables...

JN: If you don't say latest version...

MK: If you date it, then people can test it again

JN: In WCAG there is a reference to FF3

MK: There is value in that, people know how old it is

BG: If browsers are not supporting it, we can file bugs with the browser

MK: The versions of browsers that support ARIA 1.X ...., does that work

AA: How would you find that out?

MK: I am not sure

JN: We can look at the ARIA CR document

BG: We should be telling browser developers there are problems

MK: We can provide information on the last version that was tested on, so people can have information about testing

AA: I think that is a good idea

LW: Browser support is a moving target....
... Just let people take the examples as is

MK: If it is a teaching resource, and they use a browser+screen reader combination that doesn't work, they will think that is the way it is suppose to be
... How do I make an action an APG issue

JN: I can edit the action through the web interface

<mattking> ACTION: mattking Propose wording for a browser and assistive technology note for example pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/02-aria-apg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1574 - Propose wording for a browser and assistive technology note for example pages [on Matthew King - due 2015-02-09].

JG: Is there a github respository?

LW: Yes, I have put some in

<LJWatson> https://github.com/w3c/aria

<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/practices/examples/

MK: We are going to use JQeury
... Not use inline event handlers and some about documentation

Keyboard expected behaviors

ML: We want to put in a URL and link back to the APG

BG: Right

JG: I ahev a question about the github repository

MK: Do we have a stable link to sections of the APG

JN: no not right now

MK: Respec has something

JN: This is a question for MC

MK: Lets make a action for MC, or someone here take an action to talk to MC

<mattking> ACTION: mattking Talk to Michael about how to link from examples to APG document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/02-aria-apg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1575 - Talk to michael about how to link from examples to apg document [on Matthew King - due 2015-02-09].

JN: Let's not lose sleep over the URL...

MK: People might share a direct link to the example

JN: Ideally let's not lose too much sleep over the linking issue at this point

https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/practices/examples

MK: The first link is the link to the base repository, you need that to get this repository
... You need write permission to check code back in
... Anyone can make a branch request
... Are there any more issues on this topic?
... We will revisit this topic when we have more examples
... I would like to discuss Tooltip, I have a question

LW: I wondering if someone putting together template?

MK: They could your example there

JG: I will try to create an example for next week

LW: I need to leave now

MK: Can we go to tooltip for a few minutes

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip

MK: Can help me understand an explicit tooltip role? I have found this role problematic in the real world

JN: Why not

MK: It is made by the browser, are there custom tooltips?

JN: Yes there are

MK: It is some sort of span or DIV

JN: All of our custom charts and graphs every point has a tooltip information

MK: So the toolip description in the APG, that does not even have complete sentences ...

JN: Its horrible
... What is in the ARIA spec?

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip

MK: It is a little better

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#tooltip

JN: We have 3 different things about tool tips in APG

MK: We have one like pop up help
... I left those off the agenda
... I am not a big fan of the ... quote...
... Raise a bug against the spec on this issue

<jamesn> 6.2.6.1 Supporting Tooltips with the Keyboard

JN: There are some extra bits in the ARIA spec....

<jamesn> 3.2.6.1. Supporting Tooltips with the Keyboard

JN: I am looking at the raw git version, ... 3 2 6 1 support tool tips from the keyboard

MK: I didn't see those

JN: It is in the prose of the APG

<jamesn> 4.1.2.2. Using a tooltip as a description

JN: There is a description .

MK: thank you , those section numbers are in the APG

JN: The numbers might be different depending on the version

MK: Have everyone read all three of these for next week

JN: Good idea

yes

rrsagent draft, minutes
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: mattking Propose wording for a browser and assistive technology note for example pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/02-aria-apg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: mattking Talk to Michael about how to link from examples to APG document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/02-aria-apg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
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Found Date: 02 Feb 2015
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