Re: [REVIEW REQUESTED][ARIA] placeholder

On 4 April 2015 at 20:07, Bryan Garaventa 
<bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com wrote:
> If it were possible to show that 5560 examples across the web used 
> the following syntax:
>  
> <div role=”checkbox” aria-selected=”true”></div>
>  
> Would we have to say in the spec that this is a valid use of the 
> checkbox role and it’s supporting state by getting browsers to map 
> aria-selected to checkbox?
> 
Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote on 04/05/2015 01:17:57 AM:
> Hi Bryan, the analogy does not make sense. The examples provided are
> a random sample of usage from approx 80,000 web sites. 

Steve, If a random sample demonstrated high frequency usage of selected in 
the way Bryan described, how does the analogy fail?

If a random sample demonstrated that the <p> element or <<span> elements 
immediately preceding an input very frequently contained a valid label if 
if another labeling technique was not used, does that mean we should make 
those elements part of the accessible name calculation?

Steve continues:
> What I am trying to illustrate is that how placeholder content is used 
in 
> accessible name calculation needs to take into account how 
> placeholder is used in web sites, in the wild, not how we wish it 
> would be used.

I am questioning whether placeholder should be allowed to be a part of the 
name calculation. Yes, it may sometimes have a useful value. But, I am not 
convinced that calling it an acceptable alternative to the long list of 
options we already have available to authors is a good idea. Other random 
samples could demonstrate how using placeholder as a label would be 
extremely confusing to AT users.

Another equally valid position could be .... Authors have had enough 
warning and guidance against this practice so too bad for the 5,560 in 
your random sample. Kill the pernitious practice before the random sample 
of 80k turns of 60k such pages. Make all conformance checkers fail them.

Another possibility is to force user agents to fix the accessibility 
problems with placeholder presentation so that they really could be a 
fully accessible alternative.

Another possibility is for new options in HTML or CSS that make it super 
easy for authors to use the label element in a way that is both completely 
accessible and mobile friendly so that the desire to co-opt placeholder 
for this purpose evaporates.

To some, it may feel the placeholder as alternative label train has left 
the station. But, before jumping on board, I am curious to know if we are 
evaluating the potential efficacy of other viable paths.

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com

Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote on 04/05/2015 01:17:57 AM:

> From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, 
> Cc: Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>, Alexander Surkov 
> <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>, 
> "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Date: 04/05/2015 01:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [REVIEW REQUESTED][ARIA] placeholder
> 
> On 4 April 2015 at 20:07, Bryan Garaventa 
<bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
> > wrote:
> If it were possible to show that 5560 examples across the web used 
> the following syntax:
>  
> <div role=”checkbox” aria-selected=”true”></div>
>  
> Would we have to say in the spec that this is a valid use of the 
> checkbox role and it’s supporting state by getting browsers to map 
> aria-selected to checkbox?
> 
> Hi Bryan, the analogy does not make sense. The examples provided are
> a random sample of usage from approx 80,000 web sites. What I am 
> trying to illustrate is that how placeholder content is used in 
> accessible name calculation needs to take into account how 
> placeholder is used in web sites, in the wild, not how we wish it 
> would be used.
> 
> --
> 
> Regards
> 
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1