Re: Minutes of Personalization Task Force on Nov. 29

FYI, here is the minutes link: https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-personalization-minutes.html

Best,

Roy
在 2021年11月30日 +0800 AM4:19，Becky Gibson <gibson.becky@gmail.com>，写道：
> The rrsagent was not invited to the meeting so we don’t have formatted minutes.
> Here is the raw dump from my IRC client. Any help with better formatting would be appreciated, I don’t have a sophisticated text editor. I’ll see what I can do later in the week.
> -becky
>
> [10:02:31]  <CharlesL> present+
> [10:02:36]  <becky> present+
> [10:03:29]  Lionel_Wolberger (~Lionel_Wolberger@79c2f29d.public.cloak) joined the channel
> [10:03:52]  <becky> agenda?
> [10:03:52] Zakim sees 4 items remaining on the agenda:
> [10:03:53]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says, I am lurking today -- on a Zoom call in parallel
> [10:03:54] Zakim 1. Follow-up on i18n issue #144 [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:03:54] Zakim 2. Implementations Update: Who is implementing Module 1? We need two implemenations... [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:03:54] Zakim 3. CR draft Status [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:03:54] Zakim 4. Module 2.0 Updates and Next Steps [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:04:03]  <becky> scribe: becky
> [10:04:06]  <Roy> present+
> [10:04:23]  janina_ (~Janina@dd715e73.publics.cloak) joined the channel
> [10:04:28]  <janina_> present+
> [10:04:36]  <becky> zakim, next item
> [10:04:36]  <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Follow-up on i18n issue #144 -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:04:39]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel thanks Becky and Janina for covering the chair role today.
> [10:05:11]  <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
> [10:05:14]  <becky> Janina: belive that status is that we have the pieces we need to show to i18n, but don't have them in the correct document type
> [10:05:48]  <becky> Janina: have xml but need ebook and html - currently is not in the correct format
> [10:06:20]  <becky> janina: once we have correct format, need to share with i18n
> [10:06:38]  <becky> JF: clarification, epub is xhtml
> [10:06:51]  <CharlesL> q+
> [10:06:51] Zakim sees CharlesL on the speaker queue
> [10:07:07]  <becky> Janina: yes, meant epub and not ebook
> [10:08:31]  <becky> Janina: are showing shifts from left to right and right to left lanugage direction. We show inline symbols but preference is for symbol above. But, believe that showing symbols above should just be a matter of adding css
> [10:08:38]  <becky> ack CharlesL
> [10:08:38] Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
> [10:08:49]  <LisaSeemanKest> q+
> [10:08:49] Zakim sees LisaSeemanKest on the speaker queue
> [10:09:00]  <becky> CharlesL : where is these files?
> [10:09:11]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to all: forwarding the email now
> [10:09:14]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Sample of the code,
> [10:09:14]  <becky> ack LisaSeemanKest
> [10:09:14] Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
> [10:09:14]  <Lionel_Wolberger> {{22909:cooking,cookery,preparation_(general)}}Ingredients ·      2 {{22590:tin,can}}cans of garbanzo {{24021:bean_(dried),chick-pea,kidney_bean,pinto_bean}}beans ·      2 cloves {{14423:garlic}}garlic, {{15989:peel-(to)}}peeled ·      {{14406:fruit_juice,juice}}Juice of 1 {{15221:little,small}}small {{15190:lemon}}lemon ...  {{13408:cook-(to)}}Method 1.    {{13872:drain,sift,strain-(to)}}Drain the {{24021:bean_(dr[CUT]
> [10:10:15]  <becky> LisaSeemanKest : in the extension there were lots of user preferences, for example how much content was desired for the complexity setting. We did have a setting in extension for where to place the symbol
> [10:10:53]  <becky> LisaSeemanKest : it is an implementation question and CSS seems like the way to solve; Thus, this is part of the user agent implementation
> [10:12:52]  <becky> janina: believe that is beyond the need for solving the i18n issue (#144); yes, there are other issues that the user agents need to handle. It is task of reccomendation status to make sure other requirements are met. Right now we just need to satisfy i18n that we don't have a left to right / right to left issue
> [10:13:26]  <becky> Janina: believe we have looked at this in other user agents, some handle language direction better than others
> [10:14:01]  <becky> Charles: we say that Mac implementation issues where okay, but does depend upon what reading system, browser, and OS is being used
> [10:14:06]  <LisaSeemanKest> I need to jump off for a bit, but just to say we have an extention that allows right to left or left to right or above
> [10:14:48]  <becky> Janina: even when implementation / justification was not ideal, the symbols were in the correct order
> [10:14:53]  <becky> q?
> [10:14:53] Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
> [10:15:48]  <becky> CharlesL : Steve's implementation is in XML rather than xhtml
> [10:16:24]  <becky> Janina: will forward message from Steve to the personalization list
> [10:18:44]  <becky> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Nov/0026.html
> [10:20:22]  <becky> Janina: need to take Steve's information and put it into the correct xhtml format
> [10:21:13]  <becky> CharlesL : I have provided the skeleton xhtml file. That needs to be updated with the information from Steve. Probably a couple of hours of work
> [10:21:58]  <becky> CharlesL: I might have time to update the English version today. Someone will need to update the hebrew version of the file
> [10:22:51]  <becky> Janina: believe we need to just do a few lines of the recipe rather than the entire thing
> [10:24:46]  <becky> becky: reviews the info posted above by Lionel
> [10:25:26]  <becky> JF: this seems like an analogy to sign language - is not exactly the same syntax and structure that native English text speakers are familiar with
> [10:25:53]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Charles, I will do the Hebrew as soon as I have the HTML for the English
> [10:28:44]  <becky> CharlesL : will have to add spans for text that need specific symbols. I will give it a shot and write down any assumptions I need
> [10:29:02]  <becky> Janina: accuracy isn't a requirement, we just need to prove that changing the language direction works correctly
> [10:29:37]  <becky> CharlesL: I think we still have a chrome or firefox demo that may work?
> [10:31:00]  <becky> Janina: we need to make sure we point out in issue 144 that the symbol direction is correct but that some of the justification and other issues are general brower/reader issues
> [10:32:03]  <becky> CharlesL: no ebook readers currently show the symbols; but we are demonstrating this on the web - that should be enough
> [10:32:45]  <becky> Janina: but we need to see that it works inline
> [10:33:10]  <becky> Charles: so we need to combine  the english and hebrew into one file
> [10:33:36]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel to Charles: I will put the hebrew under the english, in the same file.
> [10:34:00]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Charles, I will need that <span> pattern as sometimes two words become one symbol
> [10:34:26]  <becky> JF: how much do we have to prove to i18n? We should be able to prove the capability and not all the specific use cases.
> [10:34:52]  <becky> Janina: agreed, just want to suggest that we need to put english and hebrew within the same file
> [10:35:07]  <becky> zakim, next item
> [10:35:07]  <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Implementations Update: Who is implementing Module 1? We need two implemenations... -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:35:36]  <becky> janina: this is a post CR problem. This is not an issue for the group, yet
> [10:35:54]  <becky> becky: don't we have potential people lined up?
> [10:36:16]  <becky> Janina: no one has committed to the user agent implementation
> [10:36:20]  <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to all, we have access-board started, and a Canadian bank potentially interested.
> [10:36:40]  <becky> Janina: US Access Board has agree to update an application form on github branch
> [10:38:34]  <becky> Janina: we need to show that a user can have a preferred symbol set and render between them
> [10:39:22]  <becky> janina: access board will give us the content and markup but not the rendering - we need an extension to digest/present the content and personalization markup
> [10:40:15]  <becky> Janina: US Access board example becomes our test file(s) but may need other examples to include all options
> [10:40:42]  <becky> Janina: need to see how current extension will handle the rendering
> [10:40:55]  <becky> Janina: may need Steve's help again with mappings
> [10:41:30]  <becky> Janina: still need more implementers
> [10:42:33]  <becky> Janina: need to review US Access Board example to see how many of our "must" requirements are met
> [10:42:34]  LisaSeemanKest (~LisaSeemanKestenba@79c2f29d.public.cloak) left IRC (Client closed connection)
> [10:43:05]  <becky> Janina: Any chance that Thorium might pick this up? It is open source
> [10:43:51]  <becky> Janina: CR has to last at least 60 days, we know we need at least two - so we have 120 days
> [10:44:49]  <becky> zakim, next item
> [10:44:49]  <Zakim> agendum 3 -- CR draft Status -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:46:02]  <becky> janina: are there any issues with the text Sharon sent around for the CR draft status? I have no issues, we just need to fill in the publication dates. Need feedback from Shawn
> [10:46:35]  <becky> Janina: we have the potential of privacy issues being raised, I believe we can resolve them during CR because we did get reviews from privacy and security already
> [10:47:05]  <becky> janina: we just need to clear #144 before we can determine publication dates
> [10:47:28]  <becky> zakim, next item
> [10:47:28]  <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Module 2.0 Updates and Next Steps -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
> [10:48:19]  <becky> Janina: JF gave us the reformatting; have asked COGA to review module 2 and 3 for content and prioritization
> [10:48:50]  <becky> JF: I just updated the structure of the mod. 2 & 3 documents to match with mod. 1. No content changes
> [10:49:40]  <becky> JF: just need to review the attributes and values and make sure they are still relevant; Believe we can move faster based on what we have learned from module 1.
> [10:50:01]  <becky> JF: do we want to work on mod 2 & 3 concurrently or sequentially?
> [10:50:34]  <becky> Janina: that is why I want COGA to review again for priority of item because membership in COGA has changed
> [10:52:47]  <becky> Janina: still need to address the question of how to get these specs implemented? Still fighting for ARIA implementaion who is going to take on personalization and pronunciation? Believe this is a wider WAI issue that needs to be driven
> [10:53:36]  <becky> CharlesL: believe symbols is going to be the most challenging; other attributes are not as difficult - legal-ease, jokes, complexity
> [10:54:23]  <becky> CharlesL : at least getting some of module 1 implemented in Thorium or other extension to get more interest and implementation
> [10:55:03]  <becky> janina: for example, may want to ask bliss to provide list in csv or other format rather than PDF so could look up symbols via some sort of tool.
> [10:55:11]  <JF> Q+
> [10:55:11] Zakim sees JF on the speaker queue
> [10:55:31]  <becky> Janina: talk to aria and others about making updates at once rather than piecemeal
> [10:55:33]  <becky> ack JF
> [10:55:33] Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
> [10:56:07]  LisaSeemanKest (~LisaSeemanKestenba@79c2f29d.public.cloak) joined the channel
> [10:57:06]  <becky> JF: I want to look into tinyMCE - WYSIWHG editor that supports extensions. If we could get an authoring module for personalization - two drop downs with attribute and value for authors to use.  TinyMCE is widely used so may be an implementation possibility
> [10:57:23]  <Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to JF's idea of investigating editors such as TinyMCE.
> [10:57:43]  <becky> Janina: we can become a rec. without solving wider issue of wide implementation and complexities of implementation
> [10:57:44]  <Matthew_Atkinson> and also +1 to CharlesL's of submitting patches to open source reading software.
> [10:58:01]  <becky> topic: January
> [10:58:30]  <becky> Janina: is January 4 a holiday?
> [10:58:47]  <becky> becky: most companies seem to be doing the Friday before, Dec. 30
> [10:59:27]  <becky> Janina: please check with your companies; so we will likely resume on the 4th of january
> [10:59:35]  <Matthew_Atkinson> The 3rd of January is a bank (public) holiday in the UK (c.f. https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays ) however I expect I will be around.
> [10:59:47]  <Matthew_Atkinson> s/The 3rd of January/Monday the 3rd of January/
> [11:00:07]  <JF> @Matthew - we should chat you and I about getting an extension for TinyMCE. May look to you for some assistance
> [11:00:08]  <becky> Janina: personalization if off Dec 20 and 27. Two meetings after today
> [11:00:36]  <becky> CharlesL : for authoring we may talk to Daisy as they have an epub converter
> [11:00:37]  <Matthew_Atkinson> @JF: Yes, sure; sounds good :-).
> [11:00:48]  <becky> rrsagent, make minutes
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> Becky Gibson
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/beckygibsona11y/
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
>
>