W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-openannotation@w3.org > January 2014

Re: "cite" and 'author of a quote'

From: Bob Morris <morris.bob@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:19:31 -0500
Message-ID: <CADUi7O63uOppE8BjX9NyDXhuxqZ3dwwq2mwZHPgnxo1DUtOxfg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>
Cc: Paolo Ciccarese <paolo.ciccarese@gmail.com>, Leyla Jael García Castro <leylajael@gmail.com>, Douglas Schepers <schepers@w3.org>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, public-openannotation <public-openannotation@w3.org>
+1

As an aside quibble re Doug's path toward an example, and
acknowledging that it is synthetic:  (1) I see no quotation  of either
the cited wikipedia article or, within that, the given text attributed
to Vannevar Bush. (2) I doubt that the wikipedia \article/ should be
typed as a Person which is what it might come out to be, all other
things being equal.

It would be good to have  a plain text explanation, devoid of
serialization examples, of who is annotating what resource, what part
the annotator is annotating, and whether they mean to be saying
something about the resource or something about the content of the
resource along with what they are trying to say.  Then let the
serialization begin!

The targeted audiences (web developers) not withstanding, the one
thing that is immutable is that something is not an OA Annotation if
it is not a graph. Most (?) of the effort of the OA CG has gone into
RDF representations, so CG many CG participants could probably more
meaningfully comment when confronted with an RDF serialization,
leaving others to argue about the accuracy of HTML representations and
the semantic agreement between them. Thus my +1 is really +0.9, since
what I see emerging is more like working iteratively from both sides
toward a use case for HTML serialization.

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To dredge up the literal body discussion (and hopefully put it straight back
> to rest again!), one of the advantages of the resource centric approach
> taken in the current model is that additional information *of any sort* can
> be associated with the Annotation, Body and Target, and they can all be
> different for the same field.
>
> For example, the annotation is "created" by X, who found a comment by Y, on
> an article by Z.
> Thus the annotation's creator is X, the body's creator is Y, and the
> target's creator is Z.
>
> In vanilla annotation systems, where the comment always has the same
> provenance as the annotation, this isn't possible and there are many, many
> use cases for this pattern.
>
> To liberally scatter authoredBy around:
>
> {
>   "@type" : "oa:Annotation",
>   "authoredBy" : "Rob",
>   "hasBody" : {
>     "@type": "dctypes:Text",
>     "cnt:chars" : "This is Tom's comment",
>     "authoredBy" : "Tom"},
>   "hasTarget" : {
>     "@id" : "http://example.org/resource",
>     "authoredBy" : "Jane"}
> }
>
>
> And for situations where there's a SpecificResource involved, such as
> maintaining that the quote's author is Vannevar Bush (digital library folk:
> drink!) then the current model's separation of description and
> identification of the material is also crucial -- the creator of the quote
> (as identified by the SpecificResource) is Bush, the creator of the
> description for how to resolve that quotation is someone else.  Then add
> that the full Source Resource is a text book written by someone else, and we
> have completed the authorship circle very neatly.
>
>
> {
>   "@type" : "oa:Annotation",
>   "authoredBy" : "Rob",
>   "hasBody" : {
>     "@type": "dctypes:Text",
>     "cnt:chars" : "This is Tom's comment",
>     "authoredBy" : "Tom"},
>   "hasTarget" : {
>     "authoredBy": "Bush",
>     "hasSelector" : { ... }  // selection of Bush's quote in Jane's textbook
>     "hasSource" : {
>       "@id" : "http://example.org/digital-library-textbook",
>       "authoredBy" : "Jane"}
>   }
> }
>
> Now, the predicate to use for that authorship assertion is "just" metadata,
> but important metadata none-the-less.  I think we need to start capturing
> best practices (as also for license, rights, title/label, etc etc) in a
> companion document to the specification.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Paolo Ciccarese
> <paolo.ciccarese@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Layla,
>> that is exactly why I was bringing this topic up as a separate one.
>> I think it all related to what we want to convey.
>>
>> If we annotate a fragment and we want to convey that is a quote by X, one
>> possibility is to have the body authored by X and maybe a motivation like
>> 'quoting' (not sure if oa:describing matches this specific case... and I
>> can't identify another one). Anybody as thoughts on this one?
>>
>>
>> In regards to provenance in general, I have many of those needs in
>> different projects and I complement OA with pav:authoredBy and other
>> properties (pav:createdWith, pav:importedBy ...) [see PAV links below].
>> These allow me to track richer provenance data at the body/target and even
>> annotation level.
>>
>> The approach is driven by pragmatic needs and completely generalizable.
>> However, it is happening outside the OA specs and I want to make clear it
>> is not a recommendation of the CG.
>>
>> In general terms, I would probably avoid to add to OA a lot of duplicate
>> provenance properties and I would just reuse PROV-O or PAV (that is build on
>> top of PROV-O, PROV-O compatible and a little less verbose).
>>
>> Paolo
>>
>> [PAV]
>> http://pav-ontology.googlecode.com/svn/tags/2.2.0/pav.html
>> http://www.jbiomedsem.com/content/4/1/37
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Leyla Jael García Castro
>> <leylajael@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Paolo, all
>>>
>>>> Doug, do you want to keep track of the fact that the annotation target
>>>> is authored by Bush?
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course not sure what Doug wants to achieve, but I would be interested
>>> in the first case, keeping track of the original author of the quote. At
>>> http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/core.html#Provenance there are two
>>> roles, the author of the annotation and the serializator of the annotation.
>>> If we want to keep track of the original author none of those would work.
>>> What would be the way?
>>>
>>> On a second thought, the other case is also interesting
>>>
>>>> Or annotating the quote in the target with an annotation that says that
>>>> Bush is the author?
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be adding an extra annotation saying that the quote is
>>> authored by Bush, but that "authored by" would no be an OA property, that
>>> would be the text/body of the annotation, right? And if we want to make it a
>>> property, then we should use a SemanticTag?
>>>
>>> Not sure if I am adding confusion, sorry.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Leyla
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Paolo Ciccarese
>>> <paolo.ciccarese@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Ivan and Doug,
>>>> I believe the previous discussion 'Annotation Serializations' is
>>>> becoming a little dense and hard to follow.
>>>>
>>>> I am isolating here one of the topic of a previous email (
>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-openannotation/2014Jan/0049.html
>>>> ) as I am trying to understand better:
>>>>
>>>> Ivan said:
>>>> >> I looked at your example, and, for the purpose of the discussion, I
>>>> >> did re-cast it into RDFa Lite. I *think* it is what you meant but
>>>> >> probably not exactly; I did remove the internal properties for Bush
>>>> >> because you annotate <http://example.com/sourcedoc.html> and not the
>>>> >> snippet and, I must admit, I was not sure how that 'cite' would
>>>> >> translate into OA (I am not sure it can, it may need some additional
>>>> >> properties).
>>>>
>>>> Doug said:
>>>> > Yeah, actually, unless I'm missing something, I think there should be
>>>> > some
>>>> > way in the OA model to indicate the author(s) of a quote. This would
>>>> > be
>>>> > most useful when the annotation is being viewed as a document itself,
>>>> > or when the source document is not actually available on the Web
>>>> > (behind a paywall, in an ebook or paper book, spoken during a
>>>> > non-recorded
>>>> > or time-delayed presentation, or what have you), but the annotator
>>>> > still
>>>> > wants to attribute it as much as possible (think of tweets about
>>>> > conference
>>>> > presentations which contain quotes and a link to the speaker's twitter
>>>> > id).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could you help me understanding a little better what you are referring
>>>> to for 'cite' and author of a quote and what you would like to accomplish
>>>> with OA?
>>>>
>>>> If I look at the <note> first snippet in the wiki
>>>> http://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/wiki/Serializations my
>>>> understanding is that Doug is annotating a quote in the document
>>>> http://example.com/sourcedoc.html . Therefore the target is a particular
>>>> snippet of that page and the author of that snippet is 'Vannevar Bush'.
>>>>
>>>> If that is the case, the JSON-LD in the wiki
>>>> "hasTarget": "http://example.com/sourcedoc.html"
>>>> is not accurate as it referring to the whole document.
>>>> It should be
>>>>
>>>>  "hasTarget": {
>>>>         "@type" : "SpecificResource",
>>>>        "hasSource": "http://example.com/sourcedoc.html"
>>>>         "hasSelector" : {
>>>>             .. the quote ..
>>>>         }
>>>>     }
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doug, do you want to keep track of the fact that the annotation target
>>>> is authored by Bush? Or annotating the quote in the target with an
>>>> annotation that says that Bush is the author?
>>>>
>>>> Paolo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Paolo Ciccarese
>>>> http://www.paolociccarese.info/
>>>> Biomedical Informatics Research & Development
>>>> Instructor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School
>>>> Assistant in Neuroscience at Mass General Hospital
>>>> Member of the MGH Biomedical Informatics Core
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Paolo Ciccarese
>> http://www.paolociccarese.info/
>> Biomedical Informatics Research & Development
>> Instructor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School
>> Assistant in Neuroscience at Mass General Hospital
>> Member of the MGH Biomedical Informatics Core
>> +1-857-366-1524 (mobile)   +1-617-768-8744 (office)
>>
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>
>



-- 
Robert A. Morris

Emeritus Professor  of Computer Science
UMASS-Boston
100 Morrissey Blvd
Boston, MA 02125-3390


Filtered Push Project
Harvard University Herbaria
Harvard University

email: morris.bob@gmail.com
web: http://efg.cs.umb.edu/
web: http://wiki.filteredpush.org
http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram
===
The content of this communication is made entirely on my
own behalf and in no way should be deemed to express
official positions of The University of Massachusetts at Boston or
Harvard University.
Received on Monday, 20 January 2014 19:20:00 UTC

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