Re: ODRL Version 2.1 Final Draft Specifications – Last Call for Comments (due 16 FEB) [via ODRL Community Group]

On 1/20/15 9:27 AM, Myles, Stuart wrote:
> In particular, just because someone is expressing something in an
> HTML page - whether using RDFa, microformats or JSON-LD - is not a
> guarantee that search engines will look for it or handle it.

Hi Myles,
Agreed -- and perhaps I'm jumping ahead to a future that won't 
actually exist, and if so there's no reason for ODRL to take part in 
it. :-)

For the record, I'll say again slightly differently what prompted my 
question:

I ran into an assertion, repeatedly, in the Payment and Credentials 
W3C Community Groups, that JSON-LD may well become an important 
general use tagging language for all of commercial, non-commercial, 
and credential web (and other HTTP) data transfers. Then I saw JSON-LD 
examples at schema.org and they seemed to have obvious code advantages 
over RDF and Microdata, the main one being that JSON-LD can be placed 
in a separate script block rather than painfully woven into the HTML. 
And I read Google's very recent announcement/ description that they 
support it increasingly and consider it a superior method -- simpler 
and smaller -- relative to RDF and Microdata.

These events led me to ask how I could, myself, use both JSON-LD and 
ODRL together on a web page that I set up. I'm really only familiar 
with HTML (and even it only as far as version 4), and to some degree PHP.

So far the answers, on this list, have involved a lot of descriptions 
of interactions between languages that I don't know anything about, 
and so I think I need to bow out of the discussion.

In other words, to be slightly flippant about it (which may be my best 
course) whether my question about ODRL and JSON-LD even requires an 
answer is probably something that I won't understand until long after 
the time when it the decision needs to be made.

But regardless, I'll be interested to see what the answer is, if one 
appears  :-)

Steven Rowat


>
> Regards,
>
> Stuart
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Steven Rowat
> [mailto:steven_rowat@sunshine.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015
> 12:43 AM To: public-odrl@w3.org Cc: public-odrl@w3.org Subject: Re:
> ODRL Version 2.1 Final Draft Specifications – Last Call for
> Comments (due 16 FEB) [via ODRL Community Group]
>
> On 1/19/15 9:03 AM, Mo McRoberts wrote:
>> I’m open to the idea of trying to come up with a workflow which
>> adds JSON-LD generation to the existing tooling (which generates
>> RDF/XML and N-Triples serialisations of the ontology and examples
>> from the source Turtle), although the biggest constraint is, as
>> ever, time.
>>
>> M.
>
> Hi Mo,
>
> Thank you for your explanation; unfortunately I'm out of my depth
> in attempting to understand all parts of it. I could research each
> of the individual components and terms that you've used, but, as
> you mention, there is the question of time -- my own projects are
> time-consuming and largely tangential or orthogonal to this
> question. So perhaps I'm doomed to not understand how JSON-LD and
> ODRL can work together (or can't) until some future implementation
> occurs that makes this clear.
>
> Or, perhaps it's still possible to clarify (for myself) the
> potential cross-over point of JSON-LD and ODRL, without learning
> other languages; maybe with an example?
>
> So I'll try this:...
>
> 1. Suppose I have a an HTML page, on which is listed a digital
> work: 'Book A'.
>
> 2. Suppose that I have inserted, into the HTML page, a JSON-LD
> implementation of schema.org terms  to describe that HTML page,
> including Book A's title, author, size and type of file, etc.
>
> 3. Suppose I also want ODRL terms to be available from the page,
> concerning Book A -- various rights and permissions.
>
> 4. Suppose I want these ODRL terms to be searchable logically, by
> machine, via the search engines, as part of JSON-LD (ie, as linked
> data).
>
> Then: What is going to be required to be able to write the JSON-LD
> code in such a way that it contains ODRL terms that can be part of
> a search engine's reading of the JSON-LD?
>
> My apologies, Mo, if the answer to this question is contained in
> what you already said. If so, then I suppose my only option is to
> read more about ontologies, serializations, RDF, XML, N-triples,
> tooling, and Turtle. :-)
>
> Steven Rowat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On  2015-Jan-19, at 16:52, Steven Rowat
>> <steven_rowat@sunshine.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/19/15 3:32 AM, W3C Community Development Team wrote:
>>>> The W3C ODRL Community Group seeks feedback from the
>>>> community on the Version 2.1 Final Draft specifications of
>>>> the ODRL Policy Language:
>>>
>>>> ODRL Version 2.1 JSON Encoding
>>>
>>> Short form: Is JSON-LD also supported? (It's not mentioned on
>>> that page ODRL 2.1 JSON Encoding page.)
>>>
>>> Background: Google and other search engines read JSON-LD, and
>>> it's listed at schema.org alongside Microdata and RDF as a
>>> tagging system for the general web. When I looked at the
>>> example for tagging a 'Book' at schema.org, JSON-LD seemed to
>>> me to have several advantages over Microdata and RDFa. Plus,
>>> the Credentials Community group and the Web Payments Community
>>> group are basing at least some of their work on JSON-LD.
>>>
>>> Google says here:
>>> https://developers.google.com/webmasters/structured-data/schema-org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
"JSON-LD is the newest and simplest markup format: it lets you embed a 
block of JSON data inside a script tag anywhere in the HTML. Since the 
data does not have to be interleaved with the user-visible text, it's 
much easier to express nested data items [snip]...Google is in the 
process of adding JSON-LD support to more markup-powered features."
>>>
>>> Specifically in the ODRL context, my (non-expert) belief is
>>> that JSON-LD is merely an extension of JSON, and so in theory
>>> one might be able to use the ODRL JSON Encoding directly with
>>> JSON-LD. Is this true?
>>>
>>> If so, it might be nice to make a mention of JSON-LD on the
>>> ODRL JSON page, or even give an example,.
>>>
>>> If not -- and some different ODRL Encoding needs to be done to
>>> get ODRL to work with JSON-LD -- is there something in the
>>> works for this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steven Rowat
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Received on Wednesday, 21 January 2015 06:48:50 UTC