[minutes] Nov 30 teleconf

Hi,

The minutes of our November 30th call are available at:
  https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-web-networks-minutes.html

and copied as text below.

Dom


                       Web & Networks IG meeting

30 November 2021

   [2]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-web-networks-irc

Attendees

   Present
          DanDruta, Dapeng, dom, Huaqi, JakeHolland, LarryZhao,
          PeipeiGuo, PierOHanlon, SongXu, Sudeep, Yajun

   Regrets
          ChrisNeedham, MichaelMcCool

   Chair
          Dan, Song, Sudeep

   Scribe
          dom

Contents

    1. [3]Intro
    2. [4]TPAC debrief
         1. [5]Coordination with Games CG
         2. [6]Edge Computing
         3. [7]Network conditions and monitoring
         4. [8]Multicast
    3. [9]Network Information & Edge Computing
    4. [10]Edge computing

Meeting minutes

   Slideset: [11]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/
   2021Nov/att-0006/TPAC_Summary.pdf

     [11]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Nov/att-0006/TPAC_Summary.pdf

  Intro

   Sudeep: welcome to our 20th web & networks IG
   … hope everyone is safe
   … this meeting is meant to capture the TPAC summary
   … we would like to invite you to share your thoughts on how
   TPAC went, capture some of the input and actions

   [ [12]Slide 2 ]

     [12]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Nov/att-0006/TPAC_Summary.pdf#page=2

   Sudeep: we will cover 3 main topics: games in the games CG
   … edge computing - some work done by Max in this space
   … Piers will share his thoughts about network conditions &
   monitoring
   … Song will cover the key essence of these topics

   [ [13]Slide 3 ]

     [13]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Nov/att-0006/TPAC_Summary.pdf#page=3

  TPAC debrief

    Coordination with Games CG

   Song: Jeff reported the interest from the games CG on
   exploiting low-latency from e.g 5G network
   … the CG hasn't been too aware of our work
   … we're reaching out to them to get their use cases and
   requirements
   … ideally, we would like to get real data from game vendors
   … China Mobile is running a game company, my colleague Huaqi is
   working on use cases analysis on that

   Sudeep: are there any other member here with interest on topics
   related to Web gaming?
   … the games CG is looking at trends from a Web development
   perspective
   … we're trying to bring the networking angle
   … and its impact on the quality of experience
   … anyone with an interest in sharing perspectives in this
   space?
   … if you find relevant people, please let us know

    Edge Computing

   [ [14]Slide 4 ]

     [14]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Nov/att-0006/TPAC_Summary.pdf#page=4

   Song: another feedback we got from TPAC was to make sure the
   Web platform is not left behind as new network capabilities
   emerge from edge computing
   … we already have use cases and requirements, but no active
   incubation in this space
   … we need to strengthen the incubation in this space; Max is
   leading the way
   … we also need to explore potential breakthrough in this space
   … Max and Michael will brainstorm the next steps

   [15]Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases and Requirements

     [15] https://w3c.github.io/edge-computing-web-exploration/

    Network conditions and monitoring

   Song: we need to hear from the latest evolution of the network
   info API
   … Piers will give a talk on network info from edge servers
   … while keeping in mind the risks around privacy and
   fingerprinting

   [ [16]Slide 5 ]

     [16]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Nov/att-0006/TPAC_Summary.pdf#page=5

    Multicast

   Jake: re TPAC - thanks for the mention of the Multicast work!
   … there was a mention of supporting the CG as the right place
   to work on multicast
   … is there any ongoing liaising that I should be doing from the
   multicast CG side?

   Sudeep: did you get any new member through TPAC for the CG?

   Jake: a bunch of new people came to the TPAC meeting; don't
   think they've joined the group after that
   … our next meeting is tomorrow
   … various follow ups have happened at IETF

   Sudeep: I guess this topic still needs further socializing
   within the web dev community, like edge computing
   … is there any specific short term action we can take? I
   suppose you've already done outreach

   Jake: at IETF, the feedback focused on lack of browser interest
   … there are also security concerns that were raised
   … the right browser folks may not be engaged at IETF
   … so my ask might be to establish the connections with these
   folks

   Song: in terms of multicast scenarios, there may be an overlap
   with edge computing

   Jake: several ISPs have expressed interest in multicast - more
   wouldn't hurt; but the key is getting at this stage is getting
   browsers interest

   Sudeep: the privacy concerns - do they go away from multicast
   is used in settop boxes?

   Jake: the privacy concerns are actually at the network level;
   keeping the issue out of the browser doesn't help solving them

   dom: we should be careful in distinguish issues around security
   & privacy, they hurt in different ways

  Network Information & Edge Computing

   Slideset: piersslides

   [slide 2]

   Piers: what are the metrics, where do they come from?

   [slide 3]

   Piers: the state/timing information gives a view on the network
   state from the receiver or sender perspective
   … at the kernel level, TCP_INFO gives a bunch of congestion
   info
   … as part of the BBR, there is a new delivery rate estimation
   as part of the kernel
   … a sister draft to the BBR draft, from IRTF
   … from the app level, QUIC as a transport info api with similar
   info to tcp_info
   … likewise, you get info from WebRTC

   [slide 4]
   … in the BBC, we're interested in streaming media, so trying to
   find metrics to help with media quality

   [slide 5]
   … in terms of server metrics, we would be interested in sharing
   information available only on the server
   … e.g. sender cwnd
   … it could also provide information not directly available to
   the client, e.g. the rtt
   … the congestion window is available through APIs e.g. in
   nginx, appache traffic server, via an http header or inline
   with the data

   [slide 6]
   … the cache-status-header has per-cache metrics
   … one of my draft to IETF proposes a Transport-Info header
   … The W3C server timing API provides some information to the
   client
   … CTA-WAVE has ongoing work via the Common Media Server Data,
   with media-specific delivery info

   [slide 7]
   … we did some test - a server that includes transport info via
   a proxy, profiled for consumption by a dash player

   [slide 8]
   … the error of the bandwidth estimation is much lower when
   using transport info

   [slide 9]
   … among the issues with that approach is ensuring the client is
   directly connected to the server
   … with HTTP2/3 flows can be coalesced

   [slide 10]
   … discussion at TPAC around rebooting the network info API with
   a smaller scope, but still not very popular outside of chromium
   … and giving very rough info in any case
   … Resource Timing API is not very useful for streamed media

   [slide 11]

   [slide 12]
   … in terms of potential API improvement - streams API would
   benefit from a data buffer arrival timestamp
   … Could e.g. resource timing be extended to cover media
   delivery?

   [slide 13]

   Jake: did you measure the impact on the quality of experience?

   Piers: we did, but that's more involved
   … it depends on which algorithm you use
   … on VOD, the benefit isn't as strong
   … in low latency areas, it depends on which algorithm you use -
   you get benefits, but not always as clear you would expect, but
   likely due to to the algorithms themselves

   Jake: is there a common place to follow these discussions?

   Piers: CMSD in CTA-WAVE; the analysis will be published soon,
   but hasn't been published yet

   Jake: I'll watch this space
   … would be worth bringing to MOPS in IETF
   … can you elaborate on the privacy questions that were raised?

   Piers: exposing accurate information about a client connection
   that may allow to fingerprint that particular device, which may
   allow to infer where they are
   … but we didn't lay them out in details

   dom: information could be used to say whether someone is at
   home / office / in transit
   … possibly even at the room level with very detailed info and
   impact on e.g. wifi connection

   Piers: not sure if this exposes any new info though compared to
   what you can measure with JS, but just more efficiently
   … Another issue was around coalesced flows that would allow to
   infer activity happening separately

   Jake: I guess some of the noise of obtaining the info directly
   from JS might be seen as a good thing from that perspective

  Edge computing

   Max: I haven't updated the draft use cases draft recently
   … ByteDance has expressed interest in contributing
   … will try to gather more momentum from other companies
   … toward a possible charter
   … please get in touch!

   Sudeep: sorry we're out of time, we'll also run another
   dedicated session on the topic
   … Our next meeting will likely be in January, with Max &
   Michael to dive on edge computing


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     [17] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html

Received on Wednesday, 1 December 2021 09:23:50 UTC