- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:39:14 +0100
- To: public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CAL58czrxzNtR67xes_nDtU3BuSG-vhzrt1kpt6MdYVUJkwrpEg@mail.gmail.com>
Hi all,
minutes are at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html and below
as text. Some clarifications:
1) Pablo asked on IRC: "I believe that the agreement al Lyon was we use
neither its- nor its: am I correct?"
I think so to. Leroy, can you confirm that this is the way to go?
2) About Dave's question "Can we add an optional elements to terminology
from a backward compatibility standpoint?"
>From a backwards compatibility point of view, yes. From a timeline point of
view, I would say if there is no proposal by the end of this week: no.
Best,
Felix
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
MLW-LT WG
12 Nov 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0081.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-irc
Attendees
Present
felix, dF, ankit, arle, yves, dom, georgios, shaun,
leroy, naoto, pnietoca, dave, renat, des, christian,
philr, fredrik, milan
Regrets
olaf-michael, pedro, tadej, jirka, jörg
Chair
felix
Scribe
Arle
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Action items
2. [6]Work schedule update
3. [7]Update on XLIFF-ITS mapping.
4. [8]2013 planning
5. [9]Data category overview table
6. [10]Test suite format
7. [11]mtconfidence
8. [12]Too many pointers / global rules
9. [13]Remove "HTML5 inline" markup for standoff markup
10. [14]Rename "translation provenance"
11. [15]Tool information
12. [16]issues sanitiy check
* [17]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<dF> Rollcall
<fsasaki> agenda at
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0081.html
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0081.html
Action items
<fsasaki> action-263?
<trackbot> ACTION-263 -- David Filip to summarize the options
and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the
CMS, see discussion at
[19]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41 -- due
2012-11-08 -- OPEN
[19] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41
<trackbot>
[20]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/ac
tions/263
[20] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/263
Felix: This was discussed in face-to-face in Lyons. David, do
you have an update or will you get to it?
David: Yes, I finished this week.
<fsasaki> action-281?
<trackbot> ACTION-281 -- David Lewis to ask for use cases of
data category-specific confidence scores -- due 2012-11-12 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/ac
tions/281
[21] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/281
Felix: Dave, do you have an update on ACTION 281?
Dave: After discussion with ???, I don't think the text
analytic annotation works by itself. If you apply the same
annotation to a span for different purposes, we run into
overwrite problems. Flags don't help unless you got standoff
markup.
... The other suggestion, made last week, is that MT confidence
is fundamentally different. MT should not be merged with the
others.
... Should we consider having a confidence score in those data
categories? E.g., for terminology, disambiguation, domain.
Although domain is very complex.
... Disambiguation and terminology might have their own
optional confidence attribute. If you include it you need an
ITS rules defined in the document for that data category.
Felix: Do you need more time?
Dave: We don't have a conclusion, so yes. Can we add an
optional elements to terminology from a backward compatibility
standpoint?
Felix: Yes.
Dave: Then I'll propose it on the list.
Work schedule update
Felix: First week of December for last call.
... The dates are on the wiki.
<fsasaki>
[22]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Mai
n_Page#Upcoming
[22] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page#Upcoming
Felix: After the last call, we have six weeks to get comments
from outside and then we will discuss at our face to face.
... Christian, can you introduce yourself?
Christian: I work for SAP, been working on ITS for 15 years.
Worked on multilingual content production. Background on NLP.
My background that was noted was with terminology, work on
interchange.
... Also worked on content interchange similar to XLIFF.
... Worked on XLIFF.
... Contributed to ITS 1.0.
Update on XLIFF-ITS mapping.
<fsasaki>
[23]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
ssues/55
[23] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/55
David: I missed the last XLIFF TC call, but I believe the last
call covered extensibility in <mrk> and <note>. Yves, can you
update us?
... I'm worried that we may not be able to extend <mrk>.
Yves: It would be better to have extensibility, but people
would be happy with a module.
David: The problem is that will take too long, so our markup
would be illegal until that is defined.
Yves: I think you will find a lot of opposition to extending
<mrk> extensibility.
... If we can't add extensibility from our side that is an
XLIFF problem. We should assume we can do it.
<daveL>
[24]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLI
FF_Mapping
[24] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping
Dave: You wanted to keep a pointer in for standoff markup.
... Scroll down in that link to where provenance is covered.
There is something called phase group.
<fsasaki>
[25]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
ts20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance-implementation
[25] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance-implementation
<fsasaki> search for "Or (standoff markup)"
Dave: You could write a rule that uses pointers in provenance
to map to these. These would be in addition to stand-off. The
question is if we worry about doing this explicitly.
Des: A question about this. Looking at the document, it looks
like the mappings are fairly stable for XLIFF 1.2.
Yves: Probably yes. There is no show-stopper. I think most are
mapped correctly.
2013 planning
David: I have an action to color-code things that are dependent
on unstable things. But we needed to map this to see if there
are show-stoppers.
Felix: Skip this topic.
<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to update the wiki with 2013 planning
[recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-285 - Update the wiki with 2013
planning [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-19].
Data category overview table
Felix: Think about any other venues we should go to. Also
consider location for the final workshop in 2013.
<fsasaki>
[27]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
ts20/its20.html#datacategories-overview
[27] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#datacategories-overview
Felix: Proposed that we replace this table in 6.1 with what
Shaun and Olaf-Michael started. Thoughts?
Shaun: The table there now has information not present in my
table. Combining them would make a table that is too wide.
Dave: Both have useful information, but combining them makes
the table too big.
... Jirka provided an algorithm to do the mapping from XML
attribute names to HTML names.
Felix: So you think that Shaun and Olaf-Michael’s table as an
appendix?
<Des> Arle, for minuting purpose, my question was specific to
the XLIFF 1.2 specification. I understand the 2.0 spec is still
in a state of flux. Apologies for my poor audio on the
question.
<fsasaki> ACTION: shaun to put data category table into
non-normative appendix in the spec [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-286 - Put data category table into
non-normative appendix in the spec [on Shaun McCance - due
2012-11-19].
Shaun: For some of the categories there are many different
properties. Do any of the categories have complex defaults, or
can we do it just on a data category case-by-case basis?
Felix: I think data categories are fine as the basis.
Test suite format
Felix: Who can summarize the discussions?
Leroy: If you look at LocNote, the discussion is whether we
have LocNote and LocNotePointer or just locNote.
<fsasaki> various versions are summarized here
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt-tests/2012Nov/0019.html
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Nov/0019.html
<fsasaki> (versions = with or without "pointer")
Shaun: If you want to know whether the test output identifies a
pointer, the suite doesn't test whether you are able to find
the relative expression from the pointer. That's another test
of capability.
... But I'm not sure what the output from the test would be, a
path or the value.
Yves: For 1.0, we put the string value.
Felix: I was first for having pointers, but am fine with
removing them.
Leroy: Second question. Should we remove its-* from local html
output and have it aligned with the global output for html?
Yves: That's probably better since you don't know where
information is coming from.
Leroy: Do I keep its- or get rid of it?
... So I'll standardize to the XML output.
<DomJones1> arle: do you want me to scribe?
<pnietoca> I believe that the agreement al Lyon was we use
neither its- nor its: am I correct?
mtconfidence
<fsasaki>
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0066.html
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0066.html
Felix: Dave sent a draft. See the link.
Felix: Related to the tool information topic. This looks
stable.
<fsasaki>
[31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0066.html
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0066.html
<fsasaki> ACTION: arle to edit mtconfidence [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-287 - Edit mtconfidence [on Arle
Lommel - due 2012-11-19].
<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to check xpath epxressions in
mtconfidence draft, after arle's edits [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-288 - Check xpath epxressions in
mtconfidence draft, after arle's edits [on Felix Sasaki - due
2012-11-19].
<fsasaki> close issue-41
<trackbot> ISSUE-41 mtConfidence closed
Too many pointers / global rules
<fsasaki>
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0069.html
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0069.html
Felix: Discussed a while ago, but propose to close this issue
for now. May come back on a category-specific basis.
... Hope we could have actions for data category implementers
to look at specific categories to demonstrate their use.
... I would like to separate these issues. But over Christmas
we may get more issues.
Dave: For MT Confidence score, that is the only one that I
think you need a global rule so you can give confidence to
attribute text. People might want to look at that one.
... If you want to include pointers to support things, XLIFF
examples would be very good/useful.
... I'll post these suggestions on the mailing list.
Felix: Let's move forward to having more data category-specific
issues. Can we close the general issue?
Dave: Data categories with pointers need to be written up so
that we don't mix up pointers and normal global rules.
... Is that still an objective?
Felix: It is still in the draft as a comment. So we will get to
it.
<fsasaki> close issue-51
<trackbot> ISSUE-51 There are too many pointer attributes and
global rules in general closed
<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to make action items for data category
owners about global rules [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-289 - Make action items for data
category owners about global rules [on Felix Sasaki - due
2012-11-19].
Remove "HTML5 inline" markup for standoff markup
<fsasaki>
[36]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
ts20/its20.html#lqissue-local
[36] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqissue-local
<fsasaki> "Example 85: Annotating an issue in XML with local
standoff markup and a global rule"
<fsasaki> Example 86: Annotating an issue in HTML with local
standoff markup
<fsasaki> <script type=application/xml id=its-standoff-1>
Felix: We want to use the XML content in the script instead of
its- attributes.
... The standup markup would no longer be available as its-
attributes.
<fsasaki> arle: seems reasonable
Phil: I've checked and I think this was OK.
<dF> Reviewed the mtConfidence wording as we speak, looks good
to me.. also the toolRef wording
<fsasaki> "id=its-standoff-1" - change to "lq1"
Rename "translation provenance"
Arle: Does that mean that each markup will be its own script?
Yves: Yes.
<fsasaki>
[37]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
ts20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance
[37] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance
Felix: Provenance is widely relevance. Can we switch this to
agentProvenanceProvenance?
<leroy_> my second question for the record was to remove its-*
from local html output and have it aligned with the global
output for html. It was decided to remove its-* and align the
output.
<fsasaki> "translationProvenanceRecordsRef" >
"ProvenanceRecordsRef"
<fsasaki> "transPerson"> "Person"
<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to update spec with regards to
proveance, using daveL's input [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-290 - Update spec with regards to
proveance, using daveL's input [on Felix Sasaki - due
2012-11-19].
Tool information
<fsasaki>
[39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0064.html
[39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0064.html
<fsasaki>
[40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0078.html
[40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0078.html
Felix: That's the latest thread/draft
Dave: This is ongoing. The draft is to gain clarity. In Lyon we
thought to use an IRI.
... Felix, you asked what we gain from it. It is difficult to
agree on what the content of the toolsRef would be. We could
encode things in the IRI, but it would be difficult. If we
don't say what the IRI points to.
... I don't think we have consensus yet, but the content I made
is a basis for discussion.
Felix: Since we've not had time to consider this, let's leave
it for the next call. Then next week we can add to the spec.
Dave: Should it be able to refer to non-ITS data categories?
Yves: Let's leave undefined things out of the spec.
issues sanitiy check
<fsasaki>
[41]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
ssues/open
[41] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/open
Felix: XLIFF doesn't stop us from moving forward.
... The editorial notes need to be addressed.
... If we move to last call in December, we have to be fine
with the content with no open issues. There are still many
explanatory sections that are not up to date. Esp. 1 and 2.
... We need to explain that non-normative sections will be
worked on during the last call.
... For those who are new to the group, please make comments
about normative features. Because there is a lot of mail
traffic, look at the draft and see what needs more work in the
normative sections.
... Please remember the upcoming calls.
<fsasaki>
[42]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Mai
n_Page#Upcoming
[42] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page#Upcoming
<fsasaki>
[43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2012Nov/0083.html
[43] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0083.html
Editing call is November 14, 20, 27, 28.
Felix: I can't make an editing call today.
Arle: I can't make it today either.
Felix: Thanks to you all.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: arle to edit mtconfidence [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to check xpath epxressions in mtconfidence
draft, after arle's edits [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to make action items for data category
owners about global rules [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to update spec with regards to proveance,
using daveL's input [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to update the wiki with 2013 planning
[recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: shaun to put data category table into
non-normative appendix in the spec [recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [50]scribe.perl version
1.137 ([51]CVS log)
$Date: 2012/11/12 20:31:12 $
[50] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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--
Felix Sasaki
DFKI / W3C Fellow
Received on Monday, 12 November 2012 20:39:40 UTC