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RE: Comment on ITS 2.0 WD-its20-20121206 - Inline global rules in XHTML

From: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:50:16 -0700
To: <public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org>
Message-ID: <assp.07439db90d.assp.074346d36b.002a01cdffdb$6ead8a40$4c089ec0$@com>
> Where we say to use its:rules inside XHTML without script?

Initially I though the text meant "don't use embedded <its:rules>", but the example shows an embedded its:rules (without <script>). So I thoughts: Oh it just means "don't use its:rules inside script".

And Mauricio seemed to confirm this: "...We use ITS XML syntax for the global rules and ITS HTML syntax for the local rules in the html parts." But I may have misunderstood and Mauricio wasn't talking about *embedded* global rules. (???)

Now I'm understanding that the intent of the text is to discourage the use of embedded global rules.
And if we were to use embedded global rules we should use them inside <script>.

That makes more sense.


So: a) the example must be fixed (as you pointed out)
And b) the text could probably clarify that if embedded global rules are used they should follow the HTML5 way. Basically we should say somewhere that XHTML notation is the same as HTML5 (for local attributes, embedded rules, standoff markup, etc.) and in top of that embedded rules are frown upon.

I'm still not sure why embedded rules are frown upon in XHTML while there are not in HTML, but that's a different issue.

and what about the XML vocabularies like SVG in XHTML5 and HTML5?

-yves


-----Original Message-----
From: Jirka Kosek [mailto:jirka@kosek.cz] 
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:25 AM
To: Yves Savourel
Cc: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
Subject: Re: Comment on ITS 2.0 WD-its20-20121206 - Inline global rules in XHTML

On 31.1.2013 17:57, Yves Savourel wrote:
>> I think that confusion comes from the example which was added later. 
>> It should not contain its:rules element at all, only its-* 
>> attributes.
>>
>> Yves, would removing the its:rules from the example dissolve your 
>> concerns?
> 
> Not really. It still seems that the "SHOULD NOT" contradicts the "DOM Consistency" the text refers to.

IIRC I proposed "MUST NOT" for using its:rules inside "public consumable" XHTML and HTML. But some implementers were saying that they can't rely only on local attributes and external rules, so we ended up with "SHOULD NOT" which kept door open but tries to discourage to do this.

> And it still looks very inconsistent: If there is nothing that prevents to use its:* attributes in XHTML why aren't we using them since we say to use <its:rules> directly without <script>? ...Or vice-versa.

Where we say to use its:rules inside XHTML without script?

> Note also that an XHTML document could hold SVG or other XML vocabularies and we would apply the ITS XML processing inside those, ..aren't we?

Please note that spec doesn't say anything specific about general XHTML
-- it should be treated as normal XML so you can use its:* attributes, its:rules anywhere, ...

But section you are referring to is describing only subset of XHTML used on the web:

"XHTML documents aimed at public consumption by Web browsers..."

this is because such XHTML is often server with wrong media type
(text/html) and thus gets parsed as HTML. It would be strange if you get different ITS markup in XHTML based on whether it was parsed using XML or HTML parser (so called DOM consistency rule). So for such XHTML usages we suggest using its-* attributes as they will get parsed in the same way.

With its:rules situation is more complex here but in general <script><its:rules/></script> yields as similar results as possible using XML and HTML parser.

				Jirka

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Received on Thursday, 31 January 2013 17:50:48 UTC

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