Re: MATF Minutes April 15, 2021

you all know this one?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.9ez6mism9f8d

Op do 15 apr. 2021 om 18:13 schreef Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com>:

>
> *MATF Minutes April 15, 2021 *
> *Link*: *https://www.w3.org/2021/04/15-matf-minutes.html
> <https://www.w3.org/2021/04/15-matf-minutes.html>*
>
>
> * Full text of minutes: * 15 April 2021
> Attendees Present Detlev, Jake, Kim_patch Regrets - Chair Kimberly_Patch
> Scribe Kim_patch
> Contents
> Meeting minutes
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bsze5rAu-6tkWBTGyrcm4tdsGvZAaEBBUCDsQZngl2k/edit#gid=39173941
>
> Detlev: test one thing – a button and you could take the different
> aspects of that. They also translate to user needs.
>
> Detlev: focus, different users. Doesn't matter whether helps blind users
> or keyboard users – important to spread them all out then try to rearrange
> and group them in a way that makes sense
>
> Detlev: the guidelines for implementors and authors to do the right
> thing. Of course it's good if they know user needs, but we need to convey
> technical requirements. We can use the user needs to get all those things
> that need to be pinned down and tested. But for the arrangement and
> meaningful clusters in technical terms user needs may not be that necessary
> in my view.
>
> Jake: user needs were never used also not in silver for testing material.
> One of the things we would like to show what is the user need what is the
> functional need and create functional outcome
>
> Jake: user needs are like the better version of the benefits we have
> right now
>
> Jake: User need can be very specific very granular and we might have
> billions of them in the world – a good way to explain to someone faster the
> reason the criteria exists
>
> Jake: what I thought was interesting was I was looking for the boundaries
> of user needs – user need to operate okay but it can be a lot of new user
> needs behind it
>
> Jake: thinking about a criteria when is a user need small enough that
> it's like a short as possible but enough to service a clear – technical
> user need for a criteria
>
> Jake: user needs to operate controls by label name Just a very
> interesting exercise for labeling name. What is the user Need – I was
> struggling.
>
> Jake: it is a mix of stuff you see with technical even if the person
> never sees What's on the screen
>
> Kim: Label in name users – speech, anybody who needs to look at
> programmatic name – programmers, also blind users working with anyone who
> is looking at the label on the screen
>
> Kim: so they are the same
>
> Jake: functional needs are not the same as user needs but they both serve
> to create the master user needless that you can use for a horizontal review
>
> Jake: checklist for those user needs you see the more practical
> explanation for each – this is just the first draft
>
> Detlev: is there clarity for you about the scope of future guidelines
> after this exercise – Will there be more, will there be less.
>
> Jake: that's a very good question – first you need to collect all the
> ingredients Before trying to structure them
>
> Detlev: that's exactly my point
>
> Jake: collecting user needs, functional needs, relate to outcomes. Then
> guidelines created
>
> Kim: look at all user needs at once
>
> Detlev: my concern is guideline normative outcomes connected by an and,
> and if you meet all of them the guideline gets a pass, and also not
> black-and-white pass but some measure
>
> Detlev: Sometimes all these things are all lumped together. That means in
> practice that in nearly all tests we do there is the failure of 1.3.1 –
> Almost always end up with a fail because an umbrella kitchen sink test
> criteria. Same thing seems to be happening with structured content in my
> view. There are so many things going into that visual aspects, cognitive
> aspects…
>
> Jake: I've done two or three months of experimenting with all the
> headings different outcomes, files I saw more issues to be solved then
> solutions right away.
>
> Kim: any more lessons learned from the exercise
>
> Detlev: Looking at outcomes – Looking at granularity useful here to
>
> Jake: motion actuation outcome – One of outcomes might be applicable to
> other criteria
>
> Kim: top one – several different types of outcome wordings – last one is
> broader rather than more Granular
>
> Jake: doesn't work to mix – Just more than one outcome
>
> Detlev: outcomes on the atomic level?
>
> Jake: outcome is like a goal
>
> Jake: they look pretty much like success criteria
>
> Detlev: 1.1.1 pretty wide
>
> Detlev: I'm still getting at the right level of outcome – if you say it's
> linked to some functional need that it would be something like an image
> control has a programmatically accessible descriptive Name. That would
> already combine the alt Attribute and Descriptive name. I'm still getting
> at the right level
>
> Jake: I think the different groups have taken slightly different approach
>
> Jake: there is a definition – outcomes are written as testable criteria
> that include information how to score the outcome
>
> Detlev: they can be several tests that's my point – several atomic tests
>
> Detlev: trying to collect the things that we put on the table that would
> be the right aggregations
>
> Detlev: when we go through Success criteria – not clear why things are
> grouped the way they are now. Technical the same – meaningful link and
> accessible names, Button, image, name – it's all about accessible names
> should adjust not be one guideline? Things like that are obvious
>
> Detlev: basic decisions about grouping can only be made with everything
> on the table and a fair amount of iterative moving around – should be
> separate for example programmatic Description from the visual Aspects? Good
> reasons for together or separately. I think these things need the wide
> scope and a good collection of functional outcomes – the bits we want to
> sort
>
> Detlev: concerned that if we convert several SCs, there might be overlap
> – need to look at them as a whole
>
> Kim: we can do some of that just with the mobile SCs – see where there is
> overlap and maybe see where there's overlap and note outside the mobile SCs
>
> ___________________________________________________________
>
> Kimberly Patch
> (617) 325-3966
> kim@scriven.com
>
> www.redstartsystems.com
> - making speech fly
>
> PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
> @PatchonTech
> www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch
> ___________________________________________________
>