MATF Minutes April 15, 2021

*MATF Minutes April 15, 2021
*
*Link*: *https://www.w3.org/2021/04/15-matf-minutes.html**

Full text of minutes:
*


    15 April 2021


    Attendees

Present
    Detlev, Jake, Kim_patch
Regrets
    -
Chair
    Kimberly_Patch
Scribe
    Kim_patch


    Contents


    Meeting minutes

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bsze5rAu-6tkWBTGyrcm4tdsGvZAaEBBUCDsQZngl2k/edit#gid=39173941 
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bsze5rAu-6tkWBTGyrcm4tdsGvZAaEBBUCDsQZngl2k/edit#gid=39173941>

Detlev: test one thing – a button and you could take the different 
aspects of that. They also translate to user needs.

Detlev: focus, different users. Doesn't matter whether helps blind users 
or keyboard users – important to spread them all out then try to 
rearrange and group them in a way that makes sense

Detlev: the guidelines for implementors and authors to do the right 
thing. Of course it's good if they know user needs, but we need to 
convey technical requirements. We can use the user needs to get all 
those things that need to be pinned down and tested. But for the 
arrangement and meaningful clusters in technical terms user needs may 
not be that necessary in my view.

Jake: user needs were never used also not in silver for testing 
material. One of the things we would like to show what is the user need 
what is the functional need and create functional outcome

Jake: user needs are like the better version of the benefits we have 
right now

Jake: User need can be very specific very granular and we might have 
billions of them in the world – a good way to explain to someone faster 
the reason the criteria exists

Jake: what I thought was interesting was I was looking for the 
boundaries of user needs – user need to operate okay but it can be a lot 
of new user needs behind it

Jake: thinking about a criteria when is a user need small enough that 
it's like a short as possible but enough to service a clear – technical 
user need for a criteria

Jake: user needs to operate controls by label name Just a very 
interesting exercise for labeling name. What is the user Need – I was 
struggling.

Jake: it is a mix of stuff you see with technical even if the person 
never sees What's on the screen

Kim: Label in name users – speech, anybody who needs to look at 
programmatic name – programmers, also blind users working with anyone 
who is looking at the label on the screen

Kim: so they are the same

Jake: functional needs are not the same as user needs but they both 
serve to create the master user needless that you can use for a 
horizontal review

Jake: checklist for those user needs you see the more practical 
explanation for each – this is just the first draft

Detlev: is there clarity for you about the scope of future guidelines 
after this exercise – Will there be more, will there be less.

Jake: that's a very good question – first you need to collect all the 
ingredients Before trying to structure them

Detlev: that's exactly my point

Jake: collecting user needs, functional needs, relate to outcomes. Then 
guidelines created

Kim: look at all user needs at once

Detlev: my concern is guideline normative outcomes connected by an and, 
and if you meet all of them the guideline gets a pass, and also not 
black-and-white pass but some measure

Detlev: Sometimes all these things are all lumped together. That means 
in practice that in nearly all tests we do there is the failure of 1.3.1 
– Almost always end up with a fail because an umbrella kitchen sink test 
criteria. Same thing seems to be happening with structured content in my 
view. There are so many things going into that visual aspects, cognitive 
aspects…

Jake: I've done two or three months of experimenting with all the 
headings different outcomes, files I saw more issues to be solved then 
solutions right away.

Kim: any more lessons learned from the exercise

Detlev: Looking at outcomes – Looking at granularity useful here to

Jake: motion actuation outcome – One of outcomes might be applicable to 
other criteria

Kim: top one – several different types of outcome wordings – last one is 
broader rather than more Granular

Jake: doesn't work to mix – Just more than one outcome

Detlev: outcomes on the atomic level?

Jake: outcome is like a goal

Jake: they look pretty much like success criteria

Detlev: 1.1.1 pretty wide

Detlev: I'm still getting at the right level of outcome – if you say 
it's linked to some functional need that it would be something like an 
image control has a programmatically accessible descriptive Name. That 
would already combine the alt Attribute and Descriptive name. I'm still 
getting at the right level

Jake: I think the different groups have taken slightly different approach

Jake: there is a definition – outcomes are written as testable criteria 
that include information how to score the outcome

Detlev: they can be several tests that's my point – several atomic tests

Detlev: trying to collect the things that we put on the table that would 
be the right aggregations

Detlev: when we go through Success criteria – not clear why things are 
grouped the way they are now. Technical the same – meaningful link and 
accessible names, Button, image, name – it's all about accessible names 
should adjust not be one guideline? Things like that are obvious

Detlev: basic decisions about grouping can only be made with everything 
on the table and a fair amount of iterative moving around – should be 
separate for example programmatic Description from the visual Aspects? 
Good reasons for together or separately. I think these things need the 
wide scope and a good collection of functional outcomes – the bits we 
want to sort

Detlev: concerned that if we convert several SCs, there might be overlap 
– need to look at them as a whole

Kim: we can do some of that just with the mobile SCs – see where there 
is overlap and maybe see where there's overlap and note outside the 
mobile SCs

*
* **___________________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch
(617) 325-3966
kim@scriven.com <mailto:kim@scriven.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
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