Re: Correction: I got it wrong default 16px links have height of 19px with spacing (not 24px)

I just looked at the home page. Apart from the inline links and links in
the footer, the page meets the 24 X 24 px baseline.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:25 PM Kathy Wahlbin <kathyw@ia11y.com> wrote:

> Is the new webpage that W3C created compliant to 24px?
>
>
>
> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/
>
>
>
> I don’t have time to test right now but would like to look at this on
> Thursday.
>
>
>
> Kathy
>
> VP Enterprise Accessibility & General Manager
>
>
>
> *T* (978) 443-0798  *C* (978) 760-0682
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> *The Paciello Group & Interactive Accessibility *
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>
> *From:* Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 29, 2020 8:28 AM
> *To:* public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* Correction: I got it wrong default 16px links have height of
> 19px with spacing (not 24px)
>
>
>
> Hi Kathy, all,
>
> I got my measurement all wrong when looking at the default stacked links
> example
> http://3needs.org/en/testing/code/target-spacing-default.html
>
> When I measured the height of target plus spacing I did not take into
> account that with stacked links, it would be incorrect to measure from the
> top of line text below the respective target to the bottom of the line text
> of the link above, because the areas above and below the actual target text
> are still taken as default target (as indicated by the background colour
> and the cursor change).
>
> It appears that in a default unordered list at 100% with no CSS applied,
> the 16px text link target is exactily 19px high in Firefox, there is no
> space in between targets. In Chrome, the target is 17 or (zoomed in) 18px
> high, and there is 1 px space between targets. So both are not anywhere
> near 24px.
>
> Detlev
>
>
>
> Am 27.09.2020 um 21:47 schrieb Kathy Wahlbin:
>
> How about if we exclude the stacked links and including the spacing:
>
>
>
> Target Size (AA)
>
> The size of the target for pointer including the space between targets is
> at least 24 by 24 CSS pixels except when:
>
>    - Inline: The target is in a sentence, block of text, or set of 3 or
>    more links;
>    - User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined by the user
>    agent and is not modified by the author;
>    - Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to
>    the information being conveyed.
>
>
>
> NOTE : This exemption would not apply as soon as anything like font size -
> and in the case of mobile/tablet browsers, viewport meta - has been
> modified by the author)
>
>
>
>
>
> Kathy
>
> VP Enterprise Accessibility & General Manager
>
>
>
> *T* (978) 443-0798  *C* (978) 760-0682
>
> *The Paciello Group & Interactive Accessibility *
>
> 17757 US Highway 19 N, Suite 560, Clearwater, FL 33764
>
> https://www.paciellogroup.com
>
> https://www.interactiveaccessibility.com
>
>
>
> A *Vispero™* Company
>
> https://vispero.com/
>
>
>
> NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential
> information. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply to the
> sender indicating that fact and delete the copy you received. Any
> disclosure, copying, distribution or action taken or omitted to be taken by
> an unintended recipient in reliance on this message is prohibited and may
> be unlawful.
>
>
>
> *From:* jake abma <jake.abma@gmail.com> <jake.abma@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 26, 2020 1:59 PM
> *To:* Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
> *Cc:* Sukriti Chadha <sukriti1408@gmail.com> <sukriti1408@gmail.com>;
> Mobile a11y tf (public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org)
> <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org> <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Pointer Target Spacing Proposal for Rationale and Research
>
>
>
> I do like the idea of the approach, but what user need exactly are we
> trying to solve now? Is this truly enough for that user need?
>
> How many times do we see such small targets, and how much problems /
> feedback do we have / is collected, that this is what we try to solve now?
>
> Most targets we talked about last year do not fit these dimensions.
>
>
>
> We all know and see what the value of good targets and possible spacing
> does in general, but with lowering the bar this much aren't we only
> desperate trying to get something in there without solving specific needs
> for people who need it, which may give a false impression you're creating
> something accessible / becoming  a sham?
>
>
>
> When looking at the wished / chosen approach for Silver, it all starts
> with the user need to be solved.
>
>
>
> At least we should be clear about this in the Understanding docs.
>
>
>
> ps. The example you gave Detlev are all in a sentence and are excepted...
>
>
>
> Op za 26 sep. 2020 om 19:28 schreef Detlev Fischer <
> detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>:
>
> Thanks for the extensive background research!
>
> As to your proposal For a revised SC text that calls for 24x24px without
> allowing fir spacing, my gut feeling now is that we may only succeed in
> getting this adopted by the working group if we allow for target plus
> spacing, too, to cover the frequent scenarios of stacked links in TOCs,
> drop-downs and so on; as we discussed, one approach might be to work from
> the browser text size and line height defaults and include target (16px)
> AND default size of spacing top and bottom to arrive at the overall size
> requirement (all target, or target plus spacing) where spacing is shared.
> We could set 16px as the absolute minimum for target size, and 20? 22? as
> the minimum of target plus default spacing. This is much less than what the
> user need would call for, but it might prevent really bad cases (for
> example, people reducing the default text size and then have stacked links
> with default line height, no padding etc.)
>
> Browsers do render the unstyled default of links in div, p, or most likely
> ul / li constructs differently - I have quickly knocked together a page
> without any styling (except giving the links a cyan background) just to see
> how browsers handle the spacing default:
>
>
>
> http://3needs.org/en/testing/code/target-spacing-default.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from phone
>
>
>
>
> Am 26.09.2020 um 05:11 schrieb Sukriti Chadha <sukriti1408@gmail.com>:
>
> 
>
> Hi Kim, Kathy and MATF members,
>
>
>
> Please find the document below with research, overview of issues raised
> and a revised proposal that has the rationale from a few different angles.
> Please let me know if I can help clarify anything or answer questions.
> Thank you!
>
>
>
> Document -
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gl0XVAY66jpBXphDR_VbbtjsJZfC_vvDJCMa_17SR2U/edit#heading=h.tuvbez1itgj0
>
>
>
> Gist of the new proposal :
>
>
>
> Target Size (AA)
>
> The size of the target for pointer inputs is at least 24 by 24 CSS pixels
> except when:
>
>    - Inline: The target is in a sentence or block of text;
>    - User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined by the user
>    agent and is not modified by the author;
>    - Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to
>    the information being conveyed.
>
>
>
> NOTE : This exemption would not apply as soon as anything like font size -
> and in the case of mobile/tablet browsers, viewport meta - has been
> modified by the author)
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Sukriti
>
>
>
> --
>
> Detlev Fischer
>
> DIAS GmbH
>
> (Testkreis is now part of DIAS GmbH)
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